Super Clones from china

I recently got a Patek 5396 clone for science. Visually it’s indistinguishable from the real thing on the wrist. I ran it by a work buddy who has a real one and he agrees.

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There are subtle finish issues. The weight is only 77g. All my gold watches are 100+ grams. There is a sound when winding whereas my genuine pieces are silent. All in all it is a very visually convincing piece. My Patek collector friend is going to inspect it next week for fun.

My takeaway from this exercise is that if the watch is stainless steel it could be very difficult to distinguish a super clone from the real thing. Maybe an actual use case for blockchain technology moving forward.

 

Not sure if its real or just for content but...

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2PtFrCLFwH/?igsh=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==

 

If you don't mind sharing, what was the cost?

 

$500

 

The devil is in the details when it comes to this. I always hear of these "super clones" but I've never seen one even though I do this for a living. I've actually wanted to find one a few times just to compare to the real thing but never got around to it.

Regarding the PP clone above, I'm curious how close the balance wheel is to the original one. Not sure if you can post a better pic or a high resolution one. That's one place where the fakes don't do a really good job (especially with micro stella screws). In addition, if you loupe it there's no way a $500 Chinese replica will have the fit and finish of the real Patek Philippe movement. Likewise, the stamps on the back side of the case/lugs won't be as sharp.

I'll give another example, the new style warranty cards that Rolex introduced in July 2020. Chinese replicas have started to make their way on the market but when you scan it with your phone 2 things happen that shouldn't. First, the link shown on the replica card is different than the original ones. Both lead to Rolex which can trick some but the actual hyperlink is different. Second, the real Rolex card will take you to the homepage where there's a video of a watch whereas the fake card will take you to a static display of that model. I don't know enough about this technology to say whether that's done because the clone manufacturers are lazy (probably not as it's quite easy for them to copy and paste the hyperlink) or if there's some hacking required which isn't worth the time and effort. My guess is the latter since it'll fool at least 90% of those looking at them.

These are just some examples of small details. A good watchmaker will be able to detect a fake movement usually under a minute. The fakes can use some parts on top of the movement that are from a real one or very, very well finished but once you go 1-2 layers deeper, you'll catch it. Ultimately it's a cost thing, there's no way a fake watch costing under $2k compared to a real one at $10k + will have the same fit and finish.

Having said that, some brands are much easier to "clone". A great example is older Panerais and other brands which used generic ETA/Valjoux/etc movements which themselves are $100-$200 movements. That requires a deeper knowledge of the specific model which can fool some watchmakers.

 

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I have this shot next to a genuine rotor. I’ve always been more of a fan of PP case backs than fronts. I don’t think this watch is trying to be the real thing. It’s comfortable. Visually it appears spot on. The weight is a giveaway which is why I’m concerned only for clones of stainless steel watches. The irony is no Patek AD near me even has a 5396 to try on with a price tag of 65k.

Here’s another example:

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My wife’s genuine Reine de Naples in white gold is 77g on the left. The clone (not exactly the same model) is only 49g with a satin band. But it was only $400.

 

Interesting. If a super-clone is 95+% of the quality at less than 1% of the price, (excluding design theft) what is the real value of the real thing? Function is a poor argument - if you need to tell time, look at your phone. If the feel is an issue, the fakers will add a little tungsten to the case core and the weight (feel) will be the same without changing the price point - they already do this with bullion gold.

You can also do this exercise with good 'replicas' of super high end vintage Ferraris as compared to the real high end stuff - the numbers are similar to the super-clones. I guess this means the rest of the value is perceived significance of the 'real thing'.

To me, I use the 'out of fashion' stuff as my measurement. Look at the value of PP pocket watches - how much is a time only, mint condition vintage PP pocket watch, how much is a new time only PP pocket watch? 2+2 Ferraris are a good metric as well (genuine to genuine).

This is an interesting problem. With the volume of production of modern watches (and Ferraris) how can there not be massive depreciation when a particular design is no longer the latest and greatest? To me, it means that it should only be important to the wearer - you bought the watch for you. If you are buying it to project a statement, buy a super clone.

Personally, I don't like/wear fakes but, fortunately, having the latest and greatest isn't important either.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. if the quality is that good, the super clone makers should hire some good designers and make their own thing (well, I guess they already do - its why off brand stuff is getting really good).

 

Great points. I'll add in the near(?) future these "super clone" watches will at some point become "mainstream", accepted by "real watch collectors" for what they are, a good value proposition for some, much like with vintage cars. Look at what and how many resto-mods/tribute cars are going for/available at auctions. There's too much demand for them. A real Rolex/Patek/AP will not lose its value because of super clones anymore than an authentic 1965 350 GT Shelby Mustang will because there's a ton of tribute cars available. That said, it is apples to oranges, I know, but early on, tribute cars were frowned/looked down on until build qualities improved to match or exceed the originals. My two cents.

 

The problem with super clones, is how to get the 'good ones' without being scammed!

... unless you go to China, they all want money up front, but rarely send what you ordered and you have no recourse!

They will not use an escrow account!

 

I almost view these reproductions as 1:18 models of my F car. Remains to be seen how long they last. I’m sure any ding will scratch off the plated rose gold. But they do take away the fear of being robbed or damage.

 

Clone looks great ! where can I buy one and how much are they ? Thanks

 

I hope I’m not out of line posting the following.

Geektime.watch

I was surprised at how many options are available.

 

Spending a million bucks on real rolexes and giving it to the next generation and resell them and get the million bucks back

 

Rob,

You created a whole subsection in vintage (as well as vintage market) to keep the irritating posts out - plenty of people can't tell and plenty of people want to show off to those that can't tell. On the other hand, I haven't driven a fake or 'rebody' 250 S1 PF Cab., maybe if I did, I'd change my mind.

Cheers,

Art S.

 

Interesting plan, good luck with it.

 

Pol,

I agree with you to a point but with a twist. Take the watch in the first post, make it of solid gold (don't cheap out with the materials), remove the fraudulent markings and put the actual maker's name on it, change the design slightly - say Arabic numerals and Pontife hands, tweak the movement (hopefully correcting a few flaws) and it would still be in the $2 - $3k ballpark but I might enjoy wearing it.

To me the super clones say something more ominous. As automated work becomes better, it is used more by the high end houses to keep up with demand. As the ability to achieve the high end quality of human hands of extreme skill is matched by machines then it becomes a competition of sets of machines achieving a designers vision. To me this process suggests the originals are, or are becoming, over valued.

The same can also be said from the point of view of your Shelby argument. I've heard the Shelby Cobra values are depressed because the owners are frequently irritated by people asking which kit they built... :^) I suspect that in the long run, the fakes will retain value commensurate with the condition and value of their parts.

Looking back at history, Breguet was often forged during his lifetime (hence the hidden signatures). Some of the period, and slightly newer, copies of subscription watches are really good; do you want one of the copies? I'd pay the reasonable premium for a watch created under the observation of the master's eye; or better still - by his own hand.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Buyer beware ....

https://www.reddit.com/r/RepTime/comments/12a8afm/geektime_review/

 

I'm of the same mind, I'd rather pay good money for a watch of good quality built by a skilled watchmaker, @walnut.

 

Completely agree. I prefer to collect pieces from older maisons with low annual production (in my case Blancpain, Breguet, Vacheron), not 1-1.5M Rolex or 1M Omega watch mills. I think watches (and cars) designed 20 plus years ago had way more character and durability than today. My Vacheron 85250 is +/- 1 second a day with use and mostly related to case position. Part of this experiment is also to see how long one of these things lasts before it stops running or the plating chips off.

I would definitely say don’t expect any semblance of customer service when ordering one of these. Worked out for me this one time but I imagine it’s like putting money into a random vending machine in a poorly lit hallway. If it eats your money just shrug and walk away.

 

Not true for cars, cars today are more durable/reliable than ever (IC cars, have no idea about electric crap). Have no idea about watches.

 

Have seen videos of watch folks comparing fakes to real watches. Some of them can barely tell the difference. What I don't get is like has already been mentioned, if these makers are making such good copies they could probably rebrand and do some actual marketing of their own and make more money selling as their brand.



I don't get wearing or buying a fake watch. But then I'm not in the market for just about any watch that would be replicated. Although there was someone a while back who was sure he had a fake Seiko which I really don't get. Why fake a ~$500 watch?

 

I have to admit I see so many people with Daytonas lately I just assume most are fakes.