Stock 360 lap times at Laguna | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Stock 360 lap times at Laguna

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by Gary(SF), Aug 20, 2004.

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  1. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    He won because there were no competitive adjustments to the VCC since it was new in addition to him being an above average driver who knew the track intimately. You don't see the VCC winning anymore, yet you see 4000+lb RS6 "racecars" beating up on Vettes.


    That's okay. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter.

    As opposed to some really good drivers like Tom Kristensen, Johnny Herbert, Jamie Davies, Anthony Davidson- the last three who I've met- Kristensen whom I saw ripping apart a highly rated guy like Guy Smith whom I've also had the pleasure of meeting? Yes, they are. Guys like Hans Stuck are past their prime- not that big a deal. It happens to everyone.

    Sure. Pay my way out there. I'm based in Chicago. About $3K round trip. My mechanic would be happy to arrange that with you. You would have to pay for his time too while I'm out here. I have an AMB TransX160 I use on my enduro kart that I race in the WKA national series so you don't even have to rent one. Keep in mind you'll have to fly me to Orlando after that event so that I can make the WKA Nationals- bonus points I can't afford to miss.

    Think about it and get back to me. That is, if you want to "eat crow" but for me it really doesn't matter one way or another. If not, then you'll just have to deal with the fact I ran those times at Laguna last week. It's not like it was a private day- there were a bazillion witnesses. Cheers!
     
  2. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    gtr power:

    You paid your way out here once, so do it again ... you've got a private mechanic, and you're asking me to pay your way?
     
  3. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    I have nothing to prove. You do. Thus the tab is yours.
     
  4. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    Rob-

    Your times for the amount of time you have at Laguna are not slow. But yes, there are at least 7, if not 9 seconds available on that track in a 355C if my experience is correct.

    But it would be incredibly ignorant of me to proclaim a 1.43.xx time to be an optimised time for a stock 360. That simply is not true.

    360 Challenge drivers are not all that great. If they were they would be farther up the racing ladder and not in a gentleman's series. There may be a couple of good hotshoes there, but they are not competitive with the better drivers in the best series- and most of them are NOT in the US. The typical 360C driver/owner has better things to do with his/her life- they are usually leaders in their industries and racing is a weekend hobby.

    Of course, some guys (here and in the real world) would love to think they are the best drivers. That's why they can't believe faster times are possible in cars they drive.

    Whatever car I drive, I know someone out there can drive it faster- sometimes MUCH faster. Case in point- last weekend I got my clock cleaned at the WKA national at Putnam Park- by a guy who had the exact same equipment as me- by a .5 second a lap on our best laps- quite humbling to be going 1.18.xx at Putnam and only be the second fastest in that equipment. This guy had over 20 years of experience racing karts vs. my 1/2 year- my kart was built by him- was as fast as his kart, but his experience gave him an edge I didn't have.

    That's just the way it is. I have no problems admitting that.




     
  5. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    I've got nothing to prove, but let's add to the absurdity nonetheless, and relate som race car times to your quoted 1.39 in a street 355 on slicks.

    A radical sr3 posted a 1.27.xx as the quickest time recorded at Seca - avg times are in the low 1.30's. These cars are thousands of pounds lighter than your 355, and have aero grip far suprassing that what your 355 generates - so, to believe that your running mere seconds of their pace, is quite something.

    Add to that,the avg ALMS times from the GT and GTS class from last year hovers in the high 1.20's (i.e., 1.28's) making a 1.39 in a street car even more astounding.
     
  6. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    Sure you don't. That's why you want to keep beating a dead horse and issue some pathetic "challenge."

    The faster the time, the harder it is to get to it. I never said the 360 was capable of a sub 1.30.00 time.

    The quickest time at Laguna is not by a Radical, it's by a 250cc Unlimited Kart driven by Wayne Rainey if I recall correctly- and it's in the 1.0x.xx range I think- although I could be very wrong. The superkarts will be there again this year at the ALMS race. The fastest guys in that class went 1.08.xx at Blackhawk Farms (Johnny West), and the average was around a 1.20.xx. I went 1.21.xx there- does that make my kart/driver combo fast or theirs' slow? Another example- I had a fast lap at Mid Ohio in the 1.41.xx in my Spec 125 Sprint kart- belt drive, 125cc centrifigul clutch 1 gear 28hp spec motor on a sprint chassis (same as the Blackhawk Farms example)- almost 4 seconds faster than the Pro Spec Miata guys. And I wasn't the fastest in my class. Some vehicles are just plain faster under certain conditions. Put things into the proper context.

    Nothing astounding to be 10 seconds off a GT class ALMS car at Laguna. If you had said the same thing about Road America I would have to agree.
     
  7. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
    2,684
    East Coast
    Full Name:
    Jon K.
    Since I am not a regular at Laguna I may not be totally qualified to speak.........
    ...........but I am going to anyway.

    I have driven a couple of thousand miles in my 355, both in street form with slicks and as a complete Challenge car.

    Making the assumption that Laguna hasn't changed since 2002 (please tell me if I am wrong) and that track conditions were equal there is no way in h*ll any 355 street car on any tire could ever be within 10 seconds of Lucas Luhr, three time Sebring winner, three time LeMans GT winner, Porsche factory test driver, and German F3 champion.

    Luhr turned a 1:28.77 at Laguna in 2002 and it was sunny, because I was there.

    A properly equiped 996 GTR will blow the doors off a 360 Challenge car, much less an even slower 355 Challenge. Forget about anything even remotely street related.

    Either the track has changed or you all are smoking something. Your telling me a stock S2000 on street tires can come within 10 seconds of a GTR prepped LeMans winning GTS car. Get real !!!

    What am I missing here.

    Since I am haven't driven Laguna let's look at Watkins Glen.

    A fast time for a 360 C is 2:00 flat (Steve Earle no slouch). The lap record for a 355 Challenge is 2:05.89 (I've done a 2:07.3 and mostly low 2:08's).

    A GT3 Cup Porsche does 2:00 flat and a GTS Porsche does 1:56's and 1:57's.

    A Street 355 even with slicks would be hard pressed to even get close to a 2:13-2:15 range.

    Do the math...........a 355 street car is at least 20 seconds per lap slower than GTS car, 17 seconds slower than a GT car or 360 Challenge, and at least 10 seconds slower than a street 355 on slicks.

    And you are trying to convince me your street car is only 10 seconds slower than a LeMans winning driver in a $250,000 GTS factory Porsche ??????

    Sorry but unless conditions were way different or the track configuration was changed that's plain fantasyland.

    For the record the the S.Fran region of SCCA lists the following track records:

    GT1 1:32 (650 hp Tube frame Trans Am car)
    T1 1:40.1 (95 F355 Challenge on R rated Hoosiers)

    Something isn't adding up here.

    Regards,

    Jon P. Kofod
    www.flatoutracing.net
     
  8. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,878
    Bakersfield, CA
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    Payne
    I'm not quite sure what the point of this thread is?

    The 1.43.xx time in question was done with a lightened S2K with active aero, suspension and grippy tires. I think anyone here can believe that.

    The real question is that a stock 360 can get a 1:39.......absolutely no way, no how that is possible. I've seen nothing even remotely indicative of that. GTR, you say your stock 355 can get 1:39 with *SLICKS* and brakes. That is faster than a stock 360.
     
  9. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
    2,642
    The Left Coast
    My "challenge" pathetic? Yet your copout is what... graceful??

    Your 1.39 lap time doesn't jive with what I've seen. Period.

    The end.
     
  10. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,878
    Bakersfield, CA
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    Payne

    Actually, with full slicks and brakes, a 1.39 isn't that far fetched.
     
  11. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    Mr. Payne-

    I never said I had access to a 360- in fact I stated I didn't and that my speculation was exactly that- speculation. You are correct in all your statements. I think you're the first person who has actually read the info here!

    The debate is whether a stock 360 can get to a 1.39.xx- and I'm of the opinion that it can. I don't see how my 355 street car with some of the Challenge parts can be significantly faster than a 360- but you're more than welcome to prove that to me. After all, a stock 360 has so many advantages out of the box- aero, more power, comparable brakes (at least for a couple of laps). The aero downforce alone makes the 360 far faster than the 355 even with slicks if set up and driven correctly. Also, the 360 has far more electronic driving aids... In addition, I think a 360C is far faster than what the Challenge guys are doing- quite frankly, I think they left at least 1 second on the track. Stick a guy like Jamie Davies in there and you'll know what I mean.
     
  12. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
    2,878
    Bakersfield, CA
    Full Name:
    Payne
    The aero effect that you perceive the 360 to have in my opinion can not be that large. Slicks, on the other hand, are huge.
     
  13. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    59,406
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    In summary, I don't think a stock S2000 does a 1.43, but a heavily modified one can.

    I don't think a stock 360 could do 1:42, much less a 1:39.

    I'm amazed that Nick could do a 1:39 in the street 355 with Challenge mods and slicks. Lets look back at some data points...

    T1 1:40.1 (95 F355 Challenge on R rated Hoosiers) - Well, this would be a pretty good comparison with Nick. Giving up a little time on the R's and don't know how competitive T1 races have been at LS. I'm sure Scotty White and Nakid Racing has been there, so if so, then that time would be about all a T1 can get out of LS.

    I agree overall that the level of Challenge drivers isn't up to what you find in a pro series in America and that overall the pros you find in Europe are notches above the "buy a ride" pros in America. Drendel raced World Challenge awhile and I know is a good driver. I'm actually amazed the 355 C record is that low. I had guessed 1:39 or so.

    So if Nick has a 355 with slicks that basically handles like a 355 Challenge, then I guess a 1:39 is very possible. Unless there's a video or transponder of the run, we won't be able to prove it either way. I just know from my limited experience that I was running pretty hard to get 1:46. Nick was in the Blue group and I was in the Red group. Like I've said, there was nothing running faster than me in the Red group except other Challenge cars and the 360 GT (sometimes, I think they were switching drivers). The one session they combined the Blue group in, I only got passed by the 288 GTO. I figure he was running about 1:44's. From the 360 CS cars in the Red group, I don't think any were faster, but there were some (like Brian Stradale) that were close.

    I'm just having a hard time figuring out where all that time is coming from. I have no doubt I left seconds out there between the traffic, older slicks, new to track, and the sound problems. However, I think that would only make up for a few seconds.

    Not sure anything else needs to be discussed. Bench racing doesn't have official results. We need to see time sheets or videos.
     
  14. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2001
    4,085
    Guys- PMUM was a great driver... but to think he was the end all be all of drivers and assume noone else can go faster is folly. Even he would have said that there are others faster than him... I personally think Jason Saini and many others can do faster one lap wonders, and 032R H compound tires are not even close to being a good R compound. Heck, there are faster drivers than JS too.
    [/QUOTE]

    I knew PMUM a bit. He wasn't much for posturing (unless he was doling one out for sport on the odd internet hotshoe), but never heard him cop to anyone being faster, either. And never witnessed anyone run quicker in equal equipment.
     
  15. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
    2,684
    East Coast
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    Jon K.
    Rob,

    Slicks don't make a 355 street car handle like a 355 Challenge. Unless Nick ripped out the entire suspension and brakes and added a wing his car doesn't even come close to handling like a Challenge car.

    I am most likely the only one here who has about 3000 miles in each configuration (stocks suspension with some minor Challenge stuff and complete Challenge package).

    The only difference between a street 355 and a Challenge IS THE SUSPENSION AND BRAKES.

    And it's a huge difference. It's not like a 348 Challenge where they just swapped out some springs and added a larger roll bar. My car was stripped to the wheel spindles. There wasn't a single part from the old suspension left on the car when it was converted.

    At Fiorano the difference is over 7 seconds per lap, over 5 with slicks on both cars.

    The bottom line is that there is no way in hell a street 355 with slicks is only 10 seconds slower than a Porsche 996 GTRS driven by equal drivers.

    Either the track configuration changed or the time (1:39) is inaccurate.

    Regards,

    Jon
     
  16. FLATOUTRACING

    FLATOUTRACING F1 Rookie

    Aug 20, 2001
    2,684
    East Coast
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    Jon K.
    Paul showed up at Laguna with his car on an open trailer and some toolboxes in the back of his truck. He had one crew member and a nearly stock Viper comp coupe. He beat Randy Pobst and Mike Galati (both multiplie time SWC Champions and National Run Off champions). Those two showed up with Champion Motorsports ... complete with two $250,000 18 wheel rigs, 9 crew members and two factory backed Audi RS6's and a budget of what is believe to be around $600,000.

    He beat them both and even pressured Pobst into a mistake that allowed Paul to get by for the win.

    That alone says what type of driver Paul was.

    Regards,

    Jon
     
  17. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    Really?

    He "copped" to my friend Steve Mitchell in that manner- not that he needed to. The fast guys know who's fast.
     
  18. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    No kidding. I totally agree.

    You're not the only one. I have a couple of friends from other parts of the world who have far more experience at the upper echelons of the sport with this package. One buddy has over 7000 miles of track testing and multiple hours on a multipost suspension rig on his 355 for his FIA N-GT 360 team.

    But of course everyone here is far more knowledgeable than those sorts. :rolleyes:

    Funnily enough, that is what the biggest difference between my car and a standard 355 is... suspension and brakes.

    And this is your assessment. How do you normalise driving ablity in this test? You can't. I have no idea what a 996GTRS is, do you mean a 996 GT3RS or GT3RSR? My friend John Ruther is quite a bit faster than me in his GT3RSR at Laguna when he went there last year with the PCA- I heard something like the mid or high- 1.2x.xx times or thereabouts. Or I could be completely wrong, but I do remember his times as being impressive compared to my old Mugen/Honda SS2000 times. His car isn't quite ALMS spec- but I think he still has ridiculously low operating hours between rebuilds on both engine and transmission.

    Not inaccurate.

    People will believe what they want to believe. Like I said before, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter- not one iota.
     
  19. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    And the VCC was overly competitive- corrected soon afterwards. You don't even see the VCC that much- they are usually behind the Audis, CTS-V's and even some Vettes.

    I don't see how that says anything about what type of driver he was.

    But what the hell do I know... I'm the guy who thinks he did a 1.39 at Laguna which is impossible according to some of you.
     
  20. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    59,406
    Southlake, TX
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    Rob Lay
    Nick, just curious how you got your times?

    I had someone taking my splits from the stands and he said I was doing 1:44 on Wednesday, when later on video I found out the fastest I had been was 1:48.
     
  21. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    The aero effect is huge.

    The 355C needed a rear wing to give it the downforce it lacked. The 360C does not need a rear wing. That alone should give you an idea how big a difference it makes.

    The 360's tunnels alone gives it an advantage in both downforce AND aerodynamic efficiency. The faster you go, the bigger the advantage... and conversely the slower you go, the less... not to mention the efficiency achieved with the overall Cd and far more balanced Cl from front to rear. The only time you really lose that advantage is when the slip angle increases- thus requiring a very different driving style to get the most out of the car. The 355 is a mechanical grip car- the 360 is an aero grip car- as speed increases the 355 loses it's advantage quickly- which is why I think a 360 with street tires should still be fairly equal to a 355 with slicks. The 360 is fastest when driving in the direction it's going- the 355 is fastest when very loose with larger slip angles than the 360.
    ----edit----

    Also, one thing I forgot.

    Since the 355 relies on mechanical grip, it is also very susceptable to chassis bind. That is another advantage the 360 has- the 360 should be more efficient in getting the power to the ground under most, if not all, circumstances over the 355.

    Keep in mind all this adds up to the 355 being the easier of the two to drive at the limit, but the 360 being the faster of the two when at the limit.
     
  22. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
    105
    Orlando, FL
    Full Name:
    Nick
    Splits- same as with the S2000 runs, I own an in-car Intercomp lap timer... and my mechanic was timing from the hot pits. FYI, he's an old school Champ Car crew chief and his timing is relatively spot on- within .2 seconds every lap.
     
  23. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2001
    4,085
    Really?

    "Steve Mitchell"? You shoulda said so!
     
  24. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2001
    4,085
    The remaining VCC's on the track that day weren't running in the same zip code. Otherwise, well said.
     
  25. brett

    brett Rookie

    Aug 24, 2004
    2
    T-Man! I think you'll love my first humble post at FChat. The GTR guy needs to lay off the ganja! Sub 1:40's...yeah right.

    Secondly, PMUM definitely was that fast. Ask Pobst how badly Paul would have beat him if he Paul was in an equally prepared Audi. The VCC was definitely an inferior car.

    Paul repeatedly stepped into a strange car and immediately ripped off faster laps in "fast guy's car" within a couple of laps.

    I believe Paul's record in the Viper was about 44-3 (two losses due to mechanical failure) over the last 4 years, I guess ALL those other guys sucked too.

    Jason R. is REALLY fast in the S2000, but guess what... Yep, Paul was faster. This isn't a Paul Mumford commercial, it's just a reminder that bench racing is easy when your opponent JFK jr'd and has no chance at rebuttal.

    GTR...you have no idea what you are talking about, but feel free not to bogart the stuff...huh?
     

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