Stock 360 lap times at Laguna | FerrariChat

Stock 360 lap times at Laguna

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by Gary(SF), Aug 20, 2004.

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  1. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
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    I ventured the opinion in another thread, based on my experience in my 360 at a track day at Laguna, that a stock, street tire 360 was probably good for about 1:43, and got this response.

    After spectating at the National event this week I am still inclined, more than ever, to doubt a 1:3x.xx. The 360 Challenge cars set a new lap record for the class at 1:36 (roughly) so I highly doubt a stock 360, on street tires vs slicks, heavier, with muffler, stock suspension, etc, etc, would have a chance in the world of breaking into the 1:3x bracket.

    Another data point...Dave Wilson, the chief instructor, who has a million laps at Laguna (only a slight exaggeration) was quite proud of doing 1:47 in his 550M with Hoosiers, and his son (2-time Nat'l kart champ) was going a bit slower in Dave's Hoosier-equipped 355.

    I stand by my 1:43 estimate, and that would be pedaling pretty darn good...

    Anyone else have lap times from stock 360's at Laguna??

    Gary
     
  2. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

    Jan 8, 2004
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    I'd say within 1 second either way of 1:43....seems like a good estimate.
     
  3. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I'm trying to figure out various times myself for comparison.

    No way on a stock S2000 doing 1:43. Here are some data points I've found, lets add some more...

    360 Challenge Best laps - 1:36-1:38, race laps were all about 1:38-1:42.

    Spec Miata with best pro drivers in world at SCCA race this year 1:48-1:49. Typically a SM will better almost any street car with street tires, even Ferraris, Hondas, and Subarus.

    Myself in 355 Challenge last week - 1:46. My excuse is first time, old slicks, and I had to slow by sound check. However, I doubt even with more experience and fresh tires I could get below 1:42-1:44. Some of the 360 CS cars were close because they pulled so well down the straight, but the only cars to pass me were other Challenge cars, the 360 GT, and a 288 GTO that was just smoking fast.

    Here are some SCCA racing times from the T2 class, which is where a S2000 with race upgrades and R compound tires would be. As you can see the fastest out of 6 T2 cars is only 1:46.4.

    http://www.sfrscca.org/Results/20040731/gr15.htm

    Does anyone know what the 355 Challenge cars use to run at Laguna when they still competed in Challenge series? If 360 C at 1:37, my guess is the best were at 1:40-1:42.

    Also, did they change the Laguna track config a few years back? When was this and how much on lap times this effect?

    Sorry, I know the Texas tracks well enough to call B.S. on someone as exaggerating and bragging tend to be common with the amateur bench racers. However, I just don't know enough about Laguna Seca yet.

    I want to go back and rent a Pro7 or SM for a SCCA race soon.
     
  4. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
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    Mar 17, 2002
    3,612
    Dallas, TX, USA
    I am also curious the top speeds reached by these cars on the main straight. I heard some people claiming speeds that didn't seem plausible... but I honestly never looked at mine there... too much going on. Anyone know? Anyone look at theirs?

    I did look near the end of the straight between 4 and 5 where I was reaching upwards of 130mph. Damn I love that sequence through 4, 5, and 6!! What a fantastic track... other than the damned sound restrictions.

    As for times, I'll get back with you on my times in my Stradale on stock tires... haven't had time to "decode" yet... also have videos to post!
     
  5. redcar1

    redcar1 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Rob,
    Exaggeration? In Texas?? I wouldn’t think so….
    It is amazing how slow some of the "hand held stopwatches" tend to run, when compared to a transponder or another real car on the track.
    At Laguna Seca, I seem to remember some minor reconfiguring in the last few years. Long ago there was a major overhaul that added the whole 2,3,4 infield complex.
    Mark McKenzie
     
  6. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Hopefully Brian can get some times from his videos as I think Brian was running faster than all or most street Ferraris out there.

    I stopped by Mohr Imports on the way back Thursday as I had talked to Al about that 288 GTO SCCA race car several years back. Al was saying they reconfigured turn 10, but I don't know when.

    I'm more and more skeptical about 1:43.x for either a S2000 or street 360. World Challenge Touring cars only run 1:45's. Yes, I know they only have 220-275 hp, but those are some of the best pro drivers in light great handling race cars on R tires.
     
  7. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

    Oct 13, 2003
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    Interesting stuff, guys. I knew a 1:3x was off the charts, but I still think it is possible that a pro in a 360 might approach 1:43, but I could be optimistic by several seconds on that.

    My son and I just did a lapping day at Sears Point (Infineon) yesterday and that was a blast. Actually more fun than Laguna in my opinion. Every type of turn in the books: uphill, downhill, on and off camber, increasing and decreasing radius. Greatest technical driver's track I have ever driven, and much easier on brakes than Laguna. Didn't take any lap times...

    Gary
     
  8. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    You may be right, if a stock 550 with great driver can go 1:47, then I think a 360 would be faster. That would really be hanging it out though. Just my observation of all the cars last week and most are good to great drivers lapping 1:50+. Even most of my laps were 1:49-1:51. Only a couple in there faster as I ignored the sound meter and tested the grip limits.
     
  9. Old Guy

    Old Guy Formula Junior
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    Rob,

    FWIW:

    360 Challenge pole time (2004): 1:35.7 (Buchwald)

    355 Challenge track record (1999): 1:37.4 (Drendel) This was probably the pole time from the last time the 355s ran at Laguna Seca.

    OG
     
  10. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
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    You guys need to read better.

    S2000- stock engine with tires aka. with, in my case, Hoosier A3S03 DOT tires, not even slicks.

    Not a stock S2000.

    Having good equipment doesn't mean being able to get the best out of said equipment.

    Having poor equipment (and in many Ferraris' cases, inadequate brakes on a braking intensive track) means poor lap times, no matter how good the driver is.

    A Honda S2000 with good brake pads and brake ducting will outbrake pretty much all stock Ferraris at Laguna. I still think a stock 360 is far faster than a 1.43.xx time, and should be in the 1.39.xx region but since I don't own a 360 it's a null point. I'm sure I did not get all the speed out of my car and I was at 1.39.xx for my personal FTD and that is with a 355 with slicks, brakes, front springs, a Tubi, AC, carpeting, leather (haha)...

    I remember letting the 550 by at the top of the corkscrew during my cooldown lap- a check engine light came on which we cleared out as yet another o2 sensor malfunction. My cool down lap was as fast as some of the people in my group out there going full bore which I found rather amusing.
     
  11. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

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    Let me say it like this. I don't think a stock engined, stock aeroed S2K could pull off a 1:43.
     
  12. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
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    And nobody disagrees with that. However, that is not what the original quote- something I wrote- stated.

    Besides, that really isn't on topic anyway. It's my opinion that a stock 360 should be able to do a one lap wonder time of under 1.40.00 at Laguna Seca, and if it doesn't it is more driver limited than performance limited. It's probably not the popular opinion here though... and that's fine with me.
     
  13. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    Apr 3, 2001
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    I cannot find a video of a 1:43, but here's a link to a video of Jason Rhoades doing a 1:46 with well worn Hoosiers on a bone stock S2000 with the AABAUW on the back.

    http://www.gofastvideo.com/gallery/album/view/23

    The AABAUW has since retired and became a helluva parachute. Other wings are being used now that are not active, but very well setup. Keep in mind, the S is ~2750lbs.

    Nick, not sure about a 1:43... Dave ran a 1:42 here: http://www.speedventures.net/track_records_db.asp But not sure how current that list is. His car is a SC'ed S weighing in around 2350lbs. with roll bar/hard top and 18x9 / 18x10 CCW's and slicks (not R's).
     
  14. Mr Payne

    Mr Payne F1 Rookie

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    In your opinion, I've never seen anything even remotely close to back up that point. And some S2K with active aero doesn't mean crap in relation to a stock S2K or a stock 360.
     
  15. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    That's fine. We all respect each others opinions. I only have 3 days at LS, so I'm the least qualified. I did do some research with real racing results from SCCA Club Racing and SCCA Pro.

    IMHO, with the best of the best 360 Challenge cars only doing 1:36, then I think a stock 360 under 1:40 is impossible. I personally think a CS could get close to 1:42, but a regular 360 would be hard pushed to break 1:44.

    I think a S2000 with R compound, pads, and suspension could do a 1:43.

    I'm just frustrated being at a new track that I didn't have 100% figured out and dialed in. I own or am within tenths of all SRX7 lap records at all the Texas area tracks. This is a class that gets 25+ car fields and has been around for almost 6 years now. For someone out of town they would have a hard time believing me that I've done a 2:03 on the TWS 2.9 and a 1:27.8 at MSR in a 110 RWHP car. I do have video proof though. Along with many spins and even a tow truck that totaled race car #1. :)
     
  16. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
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    The late (great) Paul Mumford pulled a 1.46.7 w/ a stock s2000 (stock engine & sus) using yoko a032r tires - I need not remind everyone of his credentials. That's flying. Under 1.50 at Seca in a street car is fast.

    The fastest naturally aspirated s2000 time @ Seca is a 1.43.6 by Jason Rhoads; his car, however, was on slicks , using a wing and weighed in at 2967 w/ driver.

    There is NO way for a stock s2000 even on slicks, to pull anything under a 1.43, much less under 1.40. Period.

    A stock 360 would be in the low 1.50s to high 1.40s.
     
  17. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    From my limited experience at LS last week and looking around the web, I have to agree with you, but I didn't want to speak too loud because of my lack of LS experience. I know I had much to learn, but I was flying pretty good to do those two 1:46 laps in a row on the videos. I was a little faster than most the 360 CS cars when doing my typical laps of 1:48-1:51. Maybe not as noticeable on the street, but the CS really pulls hard compared to the 355 and even the regular 360.
     
  18. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
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    rob: you're on track (no pun) with your estimates.
     
  19. GTRPower

    GTRPower Karting

    Mar 24, 2004
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    Jason Rhoades went 1.43.xx in that configuration. Stock engine.

    He holds the current NSXFiles record for a stock engined S2000 at Laguna... and you know we didn't go that much slower in my car with far less prep a year before that.

    Guys- PMUM was a great driver... but to think he was the end all be all of drivers and assume noone else can go faster is folly. Even he would have said that there are others faster than him... I personally think Jason Saini and many others can do faster one lap wonders, and 032R H compound tires are not even close to being a good R compound. Heck, there are faster drivers than JS too.

    If I'm doing 1.39.xx in my 355, that is street legal, with minimal Challenge parts- literally front springs, wheels, slicks and brakes- then a CS should be tearing my doors off, not to mention a lightened Challenge 355, let alone a 360. I've already stated I don't think I've gone as fast as the car can go- I think I left at least 2 seconds on the table. Think about what a 360 CS has over my car- weight, carbon brakes, aero, better trans, significantly more power... even without the brakes the standard 360 has a lot more performance over my car just in aero advantage. Standard 360 brakes would last at least a couple of laps- so a standard 360 should be able to achieve a 1.39.xx time easily.

    Also, to compare times, as some have, that a Ferrari on slicks does with a World Challenge car does on R compounds or street tires (in the case of Touring) is laughable. Imagine what the WC cars would do on a slick... You guys need to realise the driver is the biggest limitation here- and that the 360 Challenge, WC and other US tintop series do not have the best drivers, and that package (driver+car) parity is more important to entertainment than overall outright performance.
     
  20. Gary(SF)

    Gary(SF) F1 Rookie

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    Great bench racing here. My bottom line: if someone can do a 1:3x in a stock 360 at Laguna I would pay to see it, because it would be world-class driving. Until I see it on video or in person, I believe in my gut a mid-1:40 is more like it.

    Gary
     
  21. Old Guy

    Old Guy Formula Junior
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    Rob and Gary,

    I'm curious about the various timing methods used. Challenge cars use transponders and the same timing system used in virtually all professional racing. I honestly have no idea beyond that; I'll assume we're not talking stopwatch times.
     
  22. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    The SCCA times I quoted would be transponder, my 1:46 flats were stop watch from the in-car video. Not 100% accurate, but probably +/- 1 second at most. My video is online, so everyone can see firsthand my 1:46's.

    I would love to see Nick's 1:39 from last week in a 355 street car with the Challenge mods. 7+ seconds is a huge margin of improvement for me when I'm use to lap records at my familiar Texas tracks.

    Old Guy, bonus points and you'll be my idol forever if you can tell me the best 355 C and 360 C times from the TWS 2.9. However, it's a good possibility that Challenge never raced the 2.9 in favor of the 1.8. Risi always ran the 1.8 on his track days.

    I love bench racing, gives us something to do off the track having a beer. In July I broke the SRX7 MSR record by almost a second and even the other series contenders were still back of the old record. The official timesheet listed my time 1:27.8 from the transponder, but no one, including me could believe it was possible. My only explanation to everyone was I had a lap where I saw God a couple times. That's almost the truth.
     
  23. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    Here's some info I got about track changes at Laguna Seca. Since last changes were 1996, looks like all times since then are a fair comparison.

    The track was originally 1.9 miles long. In 1986 the track was lengthened to to 2.214 miles by adding an infield section between turn 2 and turn 3. The current turns 3 and 4 are new, and the old turn 3 became turn 5.

    In 1996, the track became 2.238 miles long when a new turn ten pit entrance was built. Turn 10 was made into a sharper turn, and turn 11 was moved up, making the front straight slightly longer than before.
     
  24. Old Guy

    Old Guy Formula Junior
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    Give me some time -- in the next couple of days I should be able to look this up. Off the top of my head I think the Challenge ran the longer track on at least one occasion. It MAY go back to the days of the 333 SPs at Texas.
     
  25. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2002
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    I brought up PMUM b/c a). he knew laguna well (he won the SpeedWC there, remember?) b. his car had stock sus and a stock motor, and c. b/c he was on uncompetative a032rs - which in my book are akin to really, really good street tires - not an all out race compound.

    I don't believe you're doing 1.39s.

    Imagine if...

    So, stuck, gallati, pobest, auberlan, cunningham et al are a bunch of amateurs, is that right?

    I don't believe your times ... Dec 21,22 there's an event @ Seca. Come out, lemme hook up an AMB to your rig and pass by me running a 1.39.xx. I'll eat crow all day if you do...
     

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