Well it is not the source of truth that is for sure, but I am at work and didn't have much time ... Remember guys we are just chatting ... this is not life and death stuff. Pete
Exactly. It is a sport. A pastime. A respite from daily cares. It is not life and death. Getting upset over this stuff is just silly. It's entertainment. So let's have fun. Life is too short not to own a Ferrari and be an F1 fan. Now, go take on the day.
+1 It's not surprising how a thread that started off innocently enough with a quote about sportsmanship turns into a Senna/Schumacher showdown. They were both great drivers and fans of either one have lots of stats/anecdotes/rumours to back up claims of who was better. However, as there is no quantitative measure of 'sportsmanship' it is therefore impossible to determine empirically who was more 'sportsmanlike' (although it was clearly Senna...just kidding).
Fangio said JC was the best he ever saw.....too bad the Lotus had the durability of a wet paper bag.....
Indeed: It is not a "fact" that Schumacher/Benetton "cheated' by surreptitiously running TC in 94. Benetton, like ALL of the teams (possibly save Forti), were allowed to retain the software code for TC after the ban because re-writing the ECU software midseason was deemed dangerous. Like all of the teams with any sense, Benetton maintained a facility for invoking the TC code for and during testing. They were not ever determined by anyone of any knowledge nor authority to have used TC during any of the races. It's a done and dead issue, and those who continue to foster and promulgate a fallacious alternative reality merely to tarnish and derogate are deserved and worthy of scorn and derision. YMMV
The FIA could not conclusively prove otherwise. Instead of debating our own views, let's use Ayrton Senna's opinion. I am sure he was fairly knowledgeable about F1 racing... Senna was absolutely convinced that the Benettons were using traction control, he made this statement both to his team and to the media at large right from the start of the 1994 season. On numerous occasions, he saw the Benetton ahead of him behaving in such a fashion as to strongly suggest to his expert eyes that the car ahead was benefitting from traction control. The Benetton never spun its wheels on launch, as did every other F1 car that season. In fact, more than a few F1 writers have suggested that Senna's conviction that his rival was employing illegal technology led to him taking excessive risks during the Imola race which may have contributed to his accident. While we may not know for certain, Senna was certainly convinced and I value his assessment a lot higher than I would value anyone's here.
You want to take this discussion to a personal level? We are debating an issue, not making personal attacks on each other. If you can't have a civil discussion on the issues, then have a cup of STFU and go away.
So not only do you feel the rules and regulations of F1 need not apply to Michael Schumacher, you also feel the rules and regulations of this forum need not apply to you... Why am I not surprised?
Actually, Senna kept it quiet from the Media, but only a few people in the Williams team mentioned it after the start of the French GP of 94 when Schumacher bolted past Nigel and Damon from third place. The person who said something first was Eddie Irvine at the Brasilian GP of 94, his words were, boy that Benetton sure did have a lot of grip and looked pretty glued to the pavement. At Aida in Japan, when Senna had gotten knocked out at the first corner, he was watching the two different Benettons, and commented about the sound of a particular Benetton coming out of the corners. Regardless lets get back on topic and stop with the personal attacks.
Thanks, Tony. I thought I recalled reading comments by Senna in the press but it may have been quoted after the fact. I do however remember a lot of speculation in the press in the early part of that season about Benetton.
Well anything that had to do with Tom Walkinshaw doesn't surprise me. In addition, to being a crook (ask Ford and Jaguar) the guy was the farthest thing from a Sportsman in his interpretation of bending the rules.
What killed Senna was suspension/steering failure, just as it killed Jim Clark in 1968 and almost killed Lauda in 1976. It most likely killed Cevert at the Glen in 1973... Excessive risks? Please.... Please note that Senna grabbed all three poles at the races he ran in 1994. Draw your own conclusions.....
I for one, do not agree. Even Senna and Clark are humans and make mistakes ... Motor racing is dangerous and thus a mistake can kill you. Just because they were at the top of their game does not rule out driver mistakes. Clark was racing in the rain ... heck very easy to make a mistake! I also watched Imola in 94 and Senna was pushing extremely hard and simply lost it. It is a tradegy that he should loose his life because of this, but a sandtrap, etc. ? might have saved him. I'm sure he would be pissed at the changes that ruined that track. Pete
goodness gracious...here it is again. ms vs as...vs xx vs xxx, etc....enough already. can't directly compare across era's.
Of course that is your opinion; my opinion is that a drastic mechanical failure occurred, either a loss of steering or rear suspension failure. We'll never really know.....
...And certainly unbiased. Surely, were he alive today, he'd be on a golf course helping OJ find the real killers.
You aren't debating anything. You have a very structured agenda: Press an idiotic polemic based on your opinion of Senna as some sort of Ghandian demi-god, and derogate Michael Schumacher as the baby-eating anti-Christ, at every moment in every way. There is no issue. No matter how many times you repeat it: No one has, and no one can, demonstrate Benetton and Schumacher cheated using LC or TC in 1994. That is merely your opinion, one that it is both uneducated and unreasoned. ...And so; you "win". I have been schooled: Despite being a life-long racing fan and decorated tifoso, I shall not bother with the Racing & Tracking forum in F-Chat, lest I wish to engage in a pig wrestling contest with some simple minded lout who believes he's the crusading standard bearer for The Great Martyr Ayrton Senna and all that is holy, in all occasions, and despite what history and reality might otherwise indicate. Have a nice life, watch out for Darwin.
opus, your comments are pretty funny and you write well. just a bit too tough on others. we need to play nicely together. like you, there are many race fans and racers that have very strong opinions. it becomes clear that some have real basis for their opinions and others just like to argue. any bench racing discussion always comes down to woh is the best of all time and why? no universally correct answer but lots of opinions...that's all. stick around and have some fun...joust a bit but don't this all too seriously. best, pcb
the all time great talent list could include ole h.j. stuck! never the record that ms had or others...but man was he FAST!!!! i don't know if there was ever or will ever be a person that could squeeze so much from a machine in any condition? the guy was almost too exhausting to watch as there was sooooo much going on in his cars!
This is a sport. Not life or death. I refuse to get upset about this stuff. I have learned some interesting things in this forum and that is fun. I try to keep it light and humorous. Let's save nuclear war for something important....like who is father of Anna Nicole's daughter and where was OJ Simpson when Anna Nicole mysteriously died? Life is too short not to own a Ferrari and be an F1 race fan. Now, go take on the day.
Pete, With all due respect, a driver of Jim Clark's caliber racing at a second tier Formula Two race was not driver error from all evidence. From all the scientific data that I personally read in the book about his life, it was a slow tire puncture. With Senna we will never know, because of the last 1.5 seconds of the missing tape from the FIA camera. But many still believe it was steering failure from when he looks down at the steering wheel at the last second. Yes they were both humans, but Tamburello that Senna died on was no big deal and he had taken the same curve thousands of times. It was not a tricky place, neither was where Clark died at. It most likely was some sort of Mechnical Failure.
