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Some interesting cars coming up at RM Sotheby's "Duemila Ruote" auction in Milan

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Abi2612, Sep 28, 2016.

  1. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2013
    397
    NYC/CT
    Correct. There were some lots that involved VAT on the full amount (hammer price + commission). For the vast majority (90% or so) VAT was payable on the commission only. A non-EU buyer would have been able to reclaim the VAT payment even though the process is apparently somewhat bureaucratic. It's a bit puzzling when an expert, especially one who attended the auction to represent clients from multiple countries, gets such basic facts wrong...
     
  2. gimmea250swb

    gimmea250swb Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2007
    523
    Washington, DC
    Full Name:
    Taylor
    I was there and asked multiple employees. I'd say 50% told me vat was on hammer price And commission. No, it doesn't sound right but that's what they said. This was one of the reasons I didn't consider bidding.
     
  3. Dr. K.

    Dr. K. Karting

    Mar 23, 2011
    97
    I was there and bought one car.
    In my case I only had to pay VAT on the commission.


    All bidders get a notification, on which lot the VAT had to be paid on the full purchase price.
    And it was told by the auctioneer on every car lot.

    All parts were full on VAT.

    It was also quite clear.
     
  4. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2013
    397
    NYC/CT
    My comment that 90% of the lots involved VAT just on commission only referred to cars only. I should have been more precise...
     
  5. richardson michael

    Aug 17, 2013
    239
    brittany. france
    Full Name:
    michael richardson
    The full VAT items were clearly marked in the brochure (newspaper)and,. on the cars, were very few. A number of friends(dealers) were registered to bid,none bought any stock as they reckoned the prices were way over the top. Condition issues also featured on many lots
     
  6. johnei

    johnei Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 22, 2006
    1,197
    Seattle
    Full Name:
    John Wiley
  7. Dr. K.

    Dr. K. Karting

    Mar 23, 2011
    97
    Quite interesting, but in my case missing the point.

    I must be one of the blue or orange dots as I paid almost six times over mid estimate.

    Not beeing an amateur I am still smiling over my purchase.

    And I know a german dealer with 13, cars and bikes.
     
  8. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2013
    397
    NYC/CT
    The estimates at this auction were a joke...
     
  9. richardson michael

    Aug 17, 2013
    239
    brittany. france
    Full Name:
    michael richardson
    Yes,but the joke was on us. ,and 8000 new punters who were hauled in. Very clever marketing ploy.
     
  10. TurboTerrificNo9

    Sep 24, 2011
    49
    UK
    I don't really think this is fair. RMS on a hiding to nothing here, ok so it worked out in this instance, but you're selling cars at no reserve in what many perceive to be a softening market - many with limited documentation. I don't think this was super strategic but it was reasonable and in a market where reserves have largely been anything but, may have well worked in their favour.
     
  11. steve meltzer

    steve meltzer Formula Junior

    Sep 18, 2004
    839
    with Enzo 8995
    A friend sent me the link to John Wiley's pretty cool analysis. Posted as his blog
    John Wiley Cars: RM Sotheby's Duemila Ruote Auction. I thought this was fascinating, tho' it did bring a few nightmares from algebra class. Well done. steve meltzer
     
  12. johnei

    johnei Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 22, 2006
    1,197
    Seattle
    Full Name:
    John Wiley
    Thank you Steve - I enjoyed putting it together
     
  13. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,564
    Is it "fair" to provide very low estimates such that they entice hundreds (or thousands) of people to waste their money going and inspecting cars that end up selling FAR above their interest/ability levels?

    I think RMSothebys did themselves a disservice in that. The auction, in their opinion, may have been a "success", but I also think many may have come away feeling burned. And, this is one of the reasons why I'm not particularly keen on auctions. It's just a pure crapshoot and depends on who's in the room (or the phone or internet, now) and the mood. Too much uncertainty to have confidence that you're going to get something you want at a price you're happy with.

    I had my high-end price on the LC2, and I think it was reasonable. It's nowhere near what it sold for, however. So, I'm glad I didn't incur the costs of sending anyone to inspect or bid on it. I simply wouldn't have gotten it. Period.

    Now, it was the bidders who ran up the hammer price, so I cannot be so hard on RMSothebys, either, but I think there may have been WAY too much prosecco flowing...

    CW
     
  14. TurboTerrificNo9

    Sep 24, 2011
    49
    UK
    But RMsotheby cannot win can they?

    If this auction had been a disaster, no doubt it would have been dismissed by most as poor cars in bad condition with little documentation.
    Even with incredible results many dismiss the outcome either on uneducated bidders looking for a bargain/caught up in auction fever.

    Now I agree we're probably closer to the latter outcome.


    But this is all hindsight It doesn't appear that any of the experts on here could predict the outcome, so exactly where were RMS supposed to pitch the estimates - 2014 prices that aren't achievable?

    Sounds like they did a great job to me, none of the buyers were forced to bid at those lofty levels...
     
  15. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,564
    Indeed, not, but let's say you spent $10K having someone look at the car (in Italy) and traveling to the auction. All of this, of course, based on a pre-auction estimate which seemed attractive. Maybe too attractive? However, you show up only to find that the high end of the estimate turns out to be 25% of the hammered price? I'm not necessarily saying that RMSothebys intentionally under-estimated in order to generate interest, but the alternative is that they so badly misjudged the market, that their estimates were ... unrealistic. In either case, that's not a good thing, I don't think.

    Yes, RMSothebys did their job for the Guardia Finanza, so, in that regard, the client is happy. Some bidders, however, might feel they were induced (or conned, even?) into dropping a significant sum to inspect a car and attend an auction in which they never had a chance to win. Now, someone is sitting there saying to themselves, "well, it's a sunk cost, so I might as well eat it and not bid." Or, they're saying, "I'm into it, already, for $10K (or whatever), so I might as well bid and try and win the car and factor it into my basis." Or, they're saying, "WTF?" Or, possibly, all of the above.

    I can tell you that had RMSothebys produced an estimate that was within, say, 10% of the selling price, I would have saved myself, my personnel and them the trouble. I simply do not feel the car I was interested in (either in the condition it was or with the provenance it had) was even worth close to the ballpark of what it sold for (but, that's another issue, altogether).

    I'm just saying how I felt about my own experience. The RMSothebys personnel I interacted with were entirely professional and helpful, but, when it came down to the selling price on the one car I was interested in, it was so far out of the realm of the reasonable (and estimate), that it makes me question the pre-auction estimate's legitimacy. It makes me wonder if it was under-estimated so as to serve solely as an enticement (which, if 8,000 new bidders showed up, maybe it was) to generate some interest. And, therefore, it makes me question RMSothebys' intent, motive and integrity. Auctioneers are not beyond reproach, either, and many are accused of semi- if not totally under-handed tactics. I can say I felt comfortable inquiring with RMSothebys, but now how comfortable do I feel? I guess the moral is to trust one's gut. Always.

    I get that their job is to sell cars, but you don't want people walking out of the auction saying, "Well, I feel the fool, now", do you? If you ever want to see those 8,000 again, that is.

    CW
     
  16. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2013
    397
    NYC/CT
    Well, if somebody went to the auction putting much faith in these estimates and walked away thinking "I feel like a fool" it's because they were fools. Sorry to be harsh but anybody with passing knowledge of the collectible car market would have known that some of these estimates were just WAY too low, clearly out of the context of the market. I went in with the intention of bidding on 6-7 cars. My target levels were higher than the estimates in all cases, several times higher in some cases (like the 993 GT2 race car). I bought nothing...

    Why did RM have estimates like these? It's important to remember that there were special circumstances surrounding this auction and they explain a lot. When 2-3 years RM competed with other auction houses for the right to handle the sale they had to provide estimates that, I assume, reflected the then market and the special circumstances (I bet they hadn't even been able to see the cars; a number of the legal and tax issues surronding the sale had likely not been addressed). When it came to the actual sale they felt that for legal reasons they should use the same estimates. How do I know? I asked an RM specialist before I booked my trip as could have anyone else...
     
  17. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
    1,772
    Indianapolis
    The very low estimates may well have been to justify seizing the entire collection. If you could get the entire amount from just say the cars, then the government had no justification to seize everything and in that way punish the gentlemen for evading his tax obligation. There could be other reasons I'm sure, but this one is a plausible as some of the others.
     
  18. steve meltzer

    steve meltzer Formula Junior

    Sep 18, 2004
    839
    with Enzo 8995
    I mentioned this earlier, but without the link one might have just passed this by...John Wiley's, wily blog is just fascinating, tho' technical. Looking forward to his post on the Scottsdale auctions. Here's the link: John Wiley Cars

    BTW, i'm in the camp that believes RM did a great job in this venue...no legerdemain here, just solid, savvy biz. steve meltzer
     
  19. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,564
    Based on the historical comparables, condition and provenance, I felt the estimated range for the car I was interested in was a bit on the high side already. Not outrageously so, however. Nevertheless, it hammered at 4x the high end of their estimate. As an aside, it's good to see that the market remains strong, I suppose.

    I can accept that an estimate can be wrong for any number of reasons, but it's someone's job to set the estimate, and it shouldn't miss the mark by such a wide margin, IMO.

    It certainly sounded like a Herculean task to get this collection auctioned, and RMSothebys should be applauded for that.

    CW
     
  20. Dr. K.

    Dr. K. Karting

    Mar 23, 2011
    97
    As said before, I was there.

    Ref. the Lancia-Ferrari LC2 there seem to be special reasons for the result.

    One older italian man (seemed to be an ex-driver) wanted the car very badly, but was outbid by a young chinese couple.
     
  21. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,564
    I think we all understand that it only takes two bidders for things to spiral up. They both must have wanted it desperately and had some fairly deep pockets. All good. That's auctions for you.

    IIRC, Canepa's LC2, which had a strong provenance and a full restoration, sold around this mark. Given that many Group C/IMSA GTP cars can be had for a couple or few hundred thousand, both LC2s seemed high. Personally, I don't see it the justification, but I'm also not emotionally attached to it. I suppose I can understand the high prices of the 956/962 (especially the Werkes car), which were the gold standard, of the period, but I'm not sure I feel the LC2 should be in the same neighborhood. Just my own analysis, and, as stated, the bidders set the market.

    CW
     
  22. ryanbushell

    ryanbushell Formula Junior

    Mar 25, 2012
    703
    England
    Full Name:
    Ryan Bushell
    Reasonably priced items and good range of F parts, tools and literature on sale.
     

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