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Some interesting cars coming up at RM Sotheby's "Duemila Ruote" auction in Milan

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Abi2612, Sep 28, 2016.

  1. Dalin

    Dalin Rookie

    Jun 3, 2013
    41

    There was one GTE engine and I think the number did not match any of the chassis offered? Or did I miss something?




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  2. Dalin

    Dalin Rookie

    Jun 3, 2013
    41

    Tend to disagree a bit... a lot depends whether you buy a car for yourself and manage the restoration or simply drop the car to a restoration company; a lot depends in which country you make it. Some lower value cars were reasonably priced...



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  3. jaisharma

    jaisharma Karting

    Aug 4, 2011
    75
    South east, UK
    Full Name:
    Jai Sharma
    I don't make the argument that this points prices upwards or downwards but what surprises me is that with the sheer number of cars and a reported cooling in the market for some cars at least you would have expected at least a few bargains. Were there any at all?
     
  4. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,564
    As much as I was interested in bidding on the LC2, I am glad that we chose to sit on the sidelines. EUR 851K? Silly money was being thrown around...

    CW
     
  5. hans2

    hans2 Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    May 11, 2011
    111
    Charlotte
    Aside from the auction how worthwhile was the AutoClassica show (displays, parts, dealer offerings)? I understand it's a semi-annual event.
     
  6. Dalin

    Dalin Rookie

    Jun 3, 2013
    41


    Pretty small in my view, but to be honest I only use to go to Essen and Paris.


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  7. pnorell

    pnorell Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 24, 2015
    294
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Strong results for the 330s
     
  8. Barridavi

    Barridavi Rookie

    Apr 9, 2014
    6
    La Rioja ,spain
    Full Name:
    David barrios
    Taking into account That SN5923 needs a complete restauration job and SN10029 is destroy and incomplete ,,I would say crazy results !!! With no sense under my opinion!!!
     
  9. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    41,449
    Texas!
    I'm not the expert on vintage Ferraris like you guys. But I know this, there is a lot of scared money around the world, particularly in Europe. In Cyprus, the government crammed down on bank accounts. But I don't believe they went after old cars.
     
  10. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2015
    451
    Helsinki, Finland
    Full Name:
    Pekka T.
    Hi,

    The RM newsletter says 83%. And not for "an auction" (how could they know that?) but for "an RM auction." But it's still a lot. I was among the 17% as I think this was my 5th RM auction as a registered bidder. No luck buying anything, but 5-6 lots were very close (my bid was the second or third last or just €500-€1500,- less than the winning bid) but I am not bitter. Although I agree that most internet bidders will be disappointed, many cars were in very poor shape or sorry state, but also there were amazing timewarps and some could easily be brought back to the street (or track) and IMHO the results just show that like I knew already, I'm a cheap bast*rd just looking for bargains, no offense. So it is very clear that among the thousands of other people there were some people who have more money than I do and they wanted the lots more than I did, as simple as that.

    Cheerio from Lapland!

    Pekka T.
    Fin.
     
  11. ferrari2020

    ferrari2020 Rookie

    Oct 29, 2016
    4
    i was there, people dont buy cars, they buy atmosphere, it s like going to a expensive movie
     
  12. SGTS

    SGTS Rookie

    Sep 27, 2013
    49
    Strong results for everything - Italian, German, British, vintage, classic, modern. Most of the cars sold had no documentation, no history and no provenance, and many had sat for 7 years; very few were even turned over before the auction, and mechanical condition was a lottery. Almost all went for well over high estimate, and also at close to top of the market prices for cars with impeccable provenance, history and condition. So if these all sold for such high prices in a no reserve auction, it could be a sign that the market is healthy and has bounced back to 2015 levels.

    Or it could be isolated madness that has no bearing whatsoever on the wider market beyond the 4 walls of the auction hall.

    A 2005 Bentley Conti GT for over 70K Euros; a BMW E46 M3 SMG (i.e. not manual) convertible for 42.5k? No paperwork, history or provenance, and unclear how long they have been sitting - possibly several years. Even if these were zero or very low miles cars (and they weren't), that's twice the retail price from a top dealer, and there are hundreds immediately available. These are just old, used cars, like this one:
    2008 Volvo XC90 | Duemila Ruote 2016 | RM Sotheby's. For completeness I checked values of these things (I hope my wife didn't get the wrong idea...), and this is the highest price by some distance I could find at this age - the odometer looks like it reads 45,000 km, and take a look at the the engine bay. It's just an old family wagon that has been gathering dust for a long time, and one of, erm, over 450,000.

    And you have to store it for 10 days until release (of which you will pay 7 days' storage at an unspecified rate), then wait '6-8 weeks' before you can register it (with this large number of cars being processed by Italian bureaucracy, that sounds optimistic to say the least), and it's unclear if you will ever get any paperwork other than the libretto.

    Does this auction really tell us anything about the true values of any of the cars sold, classic or otherwise; or does it tell us something about human nature? If anyone can offer an explanation for these prices other than auction fever, I'd be fascinated to hear it. Well done RM - I hope the winning bidders cough up.
     
  13. riccardone

    riccardone Karting

    May 24, 2015
    135
    The storage rate was 6 euros per car per day plus, I believe, a 300 euro flat fee for transportation of the vehicle to the storage warehouse.
     
  14. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,720
    Amsterdam
    Some estimates were way too low, like on the Maserati Mexico cars. Some of those larger signs (like the 200x120cm Esso) went for more than I'd expect on some of my cars!
    Yet not all prices were over the top, I thought the BMW E9 CSI was okay for price, even though it looked like maintenance on the horizon, it was also solid, which is rare.
    The Jaguar XJ's, especially the Series 1 that were on offer often went for very little, still a very undervalued car, as they drive really, really well. Another Jag, the copper Jaguar E OTS wih hardtop was cheap in my view at 69k, maybe it was the color?

    Still to me this outcome to me shows that the classic car/Ferrari market is very much alive and well.
     
  15. Birel

    Birel Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Sep 12, 2005
    1,542
    Brisbane
    Full Name:
    Andrew Turner
    A friend made an interesting comment about statistics: RM don't quote the % of "buyers remorse" on November 30th
     
  16. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,088
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    As my friend Pekka and others commented above you have to have a clear and rational when bidding. In this case I would suggest collective auction fever most likely with an entirely new format bringing some 83% that had never attended an RM auction, cheap enticing estimates encouraging attendance and many of those present wanting to take something home. Many people will be suffering a bit of bidders remorse in the next little while. Bidders contracts would still be binding although I could imagine it may be challenging to enforce.
     
  17. Fennicus

    Fennicus Formula Junior

    Apr 10, 2015
    451
    Helsinki, Finland
    Full Name:
    Pekka T.
    Hi,

    I'm not trying to act like I am a professional analyst (Kidston's website had an active commentary and results as they happened) but I would just like to add a few details you can not get from the RM statistics.

    1. Both on Saturday and on Sunday several lots were reauctioned. I do not know the reasons, and on Saturday I think it was perhaps only two but on Sunday, four cars were auctioned again. Lot numbers 238, 268, 617 and 652.

    238 was won by an on-line bidder of Friday, maybe he found out some way that the Giulietta Spider was no where as nice as the on-line photos and description suggested. On Friday the hammer price was €42k on Sunday €40k.

    268. On this one I think it is likely that the winning telephone bidder was not aware or had not heard that is was a regular Austin-Healey 100, and NOT an M Le Mans model. On Friday the hammer price was €55k and on Sunday €43k.

    617 was one of the lots where the full 22% Italian VAT was due for the whole amount, both hammer price and buyer's premium 12%. On Saturday the hammer price was €50k, on Sunday it was €44k.

    652 was the very rusty Alfa Romeo Montreal. I did not see it being auctioned on Saturday (I had to take a pause sometime as I was a bit ill) and on Sunday it went for €34k hammer price to an on-line bidder.

    Many of the high on-line bids for the very scruffy cars were again likely due to the bidders only trusting on the rather nice photos and description and not having examined the lot first hand, but as things go, it's their problem, not RM's.

    2. A few of the lots which I wanted but lost, were in fact lost to on-line bidders.

    Lot 523, an early 1972 SWB XJ12, original italian delivery, now also with the libretto, in an almost unmolested condition and original, but not very desireable color combination (Sable/Cinnamon which I happen to like a lot) was one wher I bid €8k in the venue, and almost got it, but as Peter was perhaps a bit slow on the hammer (unlike some of his collagues) there was an on-line bidder who bid €9k. As I was thinking if I'd be willing to throw in another €1500,- to my max bid, just for the fun, there was another on-line bidder who did, and then it was €9500,- hammer price. No way was I bidding over €10k for that car.

    So this is just how it worked on that particular lot, but I am sure the same thing happened over and over again and many people just went along and raised their bid thinking "it's not that much money after all." Some may have remorse after the auction, others perhaps not so much, if that was money they were willing to spend anyways.

    Cheers,

    Pekka T.
    Fin.
     
  18. 483hp

    483hp Formula 3
    Owner

    Aug 17, 2005
    1,419
    www.fca.alberta.com
    Playing devil's advocate...those lots may have been re-auctioned because the government shills won the auctions! LOL
     
  19. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

    Aug 31, 2002
    6,006
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Peter
    It seems like a crazy coincidence that both 330 GT's went for exactly the same price (252K EUR). The S1 was in better shape than the S2, so the pricing seems to make sense, but still seems like quite an unusual coincidence.
     
  20. E38B12

    E38B12 Rookie

    Feb 16, 2010
    11
    Sweden
    I seriously thought about flying down to attend, I'm glad I didn't. It was obvious that the low estimates combined with the hype of all the government seized vehicles attracted every wheeler dealer in Europe hoping to make a bargain. The auction itself then turns into madness as no one wants to return empty handed.

    The only decent deal can spot among all the ridiculously overpriced lots would be the 1994 Virage Volante at 67k Eur, which is probably market price since dealers are asking the double without any examples trading owners.
     
  21. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,720
    Amsterdam
    If there aren't any deals, it makes no sense to buy something too expensive. There may have been a few exceptions, but a smart wheeler dealer does not throw bad money after good.

    My guess is there were a good number of "end users", and that the market is a lot healthier than many presume it to be due to the talk about bubbles. As they say in the investment world: a bull market climbs a wall of worry.
     
  22. Prof_E

    Prof_E Rookie

    Feb 5, 2008
    6
    Germany
    I also thought about buying the Virage, but when the car was inspected it showed more signs of wear and usage than expected.
    Inspection and service will cost 3-5k.
     
  23. tritone

    tritone F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 8, 2003
    4,837
    On the Rock
    Full Name:
    James
  24. riccardone

    riccardone Karting

    May 24, 2015
    135
    I believe his statement that eu nationals had to pay VAT on every lot's hammer price is wrong, though.
     

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