Some FF stats from Today's Dealer Training

Interesting discussion...

In my case, my current dd is a ML63. 4 passenger room, power, torque, excellent feel and sound/electronics package and plenty of carrying capacity for both around town errands and high speed cruising between cities.

But when the lease is up (btw: my wife believes in the same medicine--lease the dd to avoid the urge to always change), and since all the kids are gone, my inclination is to "finally' move to a more sporty, non SUV type dd--

Options:
S63 or 65. Great cars but wife's dd is an S550 so that's out.

CL63 or 65. Possible. Not sure about the 'new' body style or new 63 engine--know the 65 is stellar because a buddy had it in his SClass. Also, need to see how much actual room rear has for passengers.

Aston Rapide. Not likely. Looks good but rear room is clearly inadequate for carrying 4 real passengers.

Panamera TT. Possible. Lke Porsche generally and seems a very capable engine/tranny package. However, have heard checkered reviews on its true driving capability and the rear lines are clearly not the best.

Bentley SS. Possible. Plenty of power, torque and clearly looks classic and stately. Great room and appointments. Probably not the best handling motor car among these options.

All are of the above are within reasonably similar range...price wise, at least, most are between $160-200k +/- well appointed.

As for the FF--

A true 4 seat ferrari designed to be a dd is an interesting concept--especially with fold down rear "space" for luggage and/or passengers and all wheel drive. Also, the dynamics/presence/sound and rarity are an interesting factor, too. And, in my opinion, potentially represents an interesting style change, as well.

However, if it really ends up priced at more than $300k in a standard/regular optioned form, I'm hard pressed to see it as a true dd type car for very many buyers, no matter their station. Who wants to thrash, day in/day out--parking lots, drive throughs, snow, rain etc--a car with a sticker at that level?

We'll see

 

Interesting real world input, the FF will definitely be on a different level than it's competition, but for so much more money it's hard to judge how successful it will be. I guess the quesion is what price range would you actually consider this car?

 

300k won't get you an FF.

But all the other cars you mentioned are half the price ... so pick 2

Just me - 612 and a RR = 225K

 

Well I think they're claiming MSRP of under $300k, in which case it's a direct competitor to the Mercedes CL65 AMG.

Ferrari FF is to the CL65 AMG as the Ferrari California is to the SL63 AMG. Similar price differentials percentage wise (California ~$190k base versus SL63 ~$130k base, FF ~$280k base versus CL65 ~$200k base).

Just as there were plenty of would be SL63 buyers who were willing to drop an extra $60k to hop into a Ferrari, I'm sure there are plenty of would be CL65 buyers willing to let fly another $80k to hop into a Ferrari FF. More luggage space, too.

 

300 - aint happening!

CL65 is loaded at 200k

The last test vehicle with no carbon or goodies was 370k.

I know someone who ordered one and is expecting it to come in around 400k.

Ya gotta understand how small the 200k market is ... then the 250 ... then the 300 ... then the 350

It's a very very limited buyer and while they may sell out - this is a tough sale when the guy drives in with his 612 he will be taking a bath on of at least 150k after two years and 5,000 miles.

Ferrari depreciation has to factor in. The Mercedes buyer is nowhere near the league of a FF buyer.

It's a term I like to use known as f u money

 

I mean that's not too crazy. Loaded California is like $250k, so about double the base msrp SL63. $400k is a little less than double the base msrp of a CL65. I don't think Ferrari is trying to be cheap, for certain, but there are people who already own a 458 for the track, a California for weekend outings, and certainly wouldn't mind an FF for family stuff.

 

What you are saying does make sense.

Which takes guys like me out of the FF world if that's what it represents.

 

Maybe that's where the FF is at ?

Despite my resolve not to post on this issue I just have to correct some misrepresentations.

The facts V 12 capacity currently is about 1400 a year. With GTO production nearly finished the line is making HGTE (very few) , 458 Challenge (temporary ) and balance of SA Aperta.

They envisage 6 FF's a day from post summer break when the line is exclusively FF for 12 months when the 599 replacement is introduced.

Target US market is 500 units in first year. Base price will be under $300k, most likely $285K and despite hyping options and quoting Euro prices with 20% VAT (sales tax) by certain posters potential US purchasers need to know that ex sales tax in the USA actual MSRP including options will be around a projected $330K.
The 599 replacement will be priced close to 599 GTO and represent a reversal of pricing points with 2+2 as Tifosi15 correctly points out.

 

I don't know how much a 612 was in the US but all I know from a couple of very trusted sources is that the FF will be priced lower (a little) than an equivalent 612.
This is to make the 599 replacement the top of the cars at Ferrari without making it impossibly expensive

 

Thanks very much for the "real world" detail--I'd not thought my way through what seems a very sensible strategy by the factory to manage its 12 cyl line over the next year or so.

I'm actually pleased that the 599 replacement is being targeted close to the GTO--all the better for GTO owners in the long run.

As for the FF--$330k is definitely right on the bubble, at least as far as I'm concerned, no matter the dynamics, sound, exclusivity, and if liked when I see it in person, styling.

If its $350k, its out, period, for me as a dd.

If it were $285k normally optioned, I'd very strongly consider it, assuming it hits the other important markers once I actually look at/drive it.

Obviously, I appreciate the difference is "somewhat" marginal between these points but for me its really a perspective and twisted reasonableness argument...versus the others I've suggested above that are my considerations.

However, if the target is 500 units in the US year 1...I'm highly skeptical they truly reach it. I mean they only made 599 GTO's world wide...And, also skeptical that the value in year 3 or 4 will not be typical of 12 cyl like the 612 and its predecessors.

Maybe my answer will be to get the CL65, wait 3 years, pick one up at $175k+/-, and have what may be one of the most interesting cars in years to have fun with versus using it as a dd and beating it silly...
Guess we'll see--

 

It's possible that's where it's at. A friend of mine from college used to work at a high end used car company, and he was always amazed at the depreciation on Rolls Royces. Buyers typically owned many cars, the rolls would be their 10th+ and they would keep it for a year, and trade it back in at 60% msrp to get a new one in a different color. I would guess if you have a net worth in excess of 9 figures, why drive a year old car with little creases and dirt building up on the seats and floor mats, when you can drive a brand new one.

Needless to say, if you're in the market for a rolls royce and have a full time driver to take you around, I doubt you'd need to tighten your belt and buy used, hence there's almost 0 market for used Rolls Royces.

I would imagine the 612 and FF primarily target a similar audience. It's target demographic is mostly out of our league.

Don't forget international, there's a lot of old money out there. China's major cities have thousands of billionaires (chinese currency), hotels there have LP640's, 599's, Rolls, Bentley's literally lined up outside.

I don't doubt Ferrari can sell the FF, but they just won't be able to sell it to us.

 

Have you seen how badly a Bentley depreciates in a year? It's at least $100k in a year, the 612 has depreciated at the level of $130-200k in 5 years. This sector has massive depreciation, yet they sell in fairly decent volumes, Bentley has seen huge success with the Conti

 

lol .... oook

 

Let's just say no one knows ... oh wait the bland looking test car was 370K.

... now you know that the 599 replacement is 450k?

But if one was to rely on your post
FF is 275
New 599 is 450

You may know people high up in Ferrari and invited to top events.

But my neighbor ordered a FF and without checking a lot of boxes feels it will fall around 400.

My other neighbor owns a dealer with Bentley Lotus Lambo RR Maser Bugatti Alfa and is a authorized Ferrari service center.

I am not here to argue the FF price it could be 200 I still do not like it, and the guy who writes the check does - anything in between doesn't matter.

 

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=newcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=43140157&listingRecNum=7&criteria=sf1Dir%3DDESC%26alMdId%3D20851%26mkId%3D20051%26stkTyp%3DN%26mdId%3D20851%26rd%3D100000%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId%26zc%3D75040%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28880%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26sf2Nm%3Dlocation%26alMkId%3D20051%26rpp%3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=53371585&listingRecNum=23&criteria=sf1Dir%3DDESC%26alMdId%3D20851%26mkId%3D20051%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20851%26rd%3D100000%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId%26zc%3D75040%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26alMkId%3D20051%26rpp%3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national

It's there mate, the 2009 car only has 40 miles on it, which makes it a brand new car. Your "F u money" isn't limited to Ferrari, sorry

 

That's a good plan ... let some guy lose 175k and put 10k miles on it.

At that price it makes cents

 

You realize there is a little thing called options.

One looks like a Mulliner pkg.

 

Here's another Speed, so same spec, still a brand new car with 27 miles. These are inflated dealer prices too. You're argument that only Ferrari's have massive depreciation just isn't so.

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=57750761&listingRecNum=16&criteria=sf1Dir%3DDESC%26alMdId%3D20851%26mkId%3D20051%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20851%26rd%3D100000%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId%26zc%3D75040%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26alMkId%3D20051%26rpp%3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national

 

That is a 2008 and we are in 2011

The list would be nice and helpful ... don't ya think?

Seriously dude ... let it go!

I am not buying a FF ... peace on this thread!

 

You're argument is still bollocks but okay, nice sparring with you.

 

Let's be fair here,2009 you show as an example is the least desirable regular GT model while the 2010 (at $70k more) is the Speed model,a much pricier car to begin with.

 

Yes, I flubbed on which one I clicked on. I found the better example a few posts later. It seems the market is so flooded with these cars that they sit for years unused. I just don't think it's a warranted argument that only Ferrari's depreciate massively, any luxury item is going to hit the bricks

 

Still,a 2 year older car and who knows how well optioned?
Lowest MSRP I've seen for Speed was about $209K,mine was $249k.

 

My point is the market is so saturated these cars sit unused for years, even with less than 50 miles on them.

 

That's true.
Supersport in particular is becoming a heavy burden on Bentley dealers,$280K base and they still have 2010s they can't shift at $200K fire sale.