News

Sn of this 250 TR ?

Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by amenasce, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2008
    1,111
    London
    Full Name:
    Kim
    Dear Kare. Please do not let this thread descend into the inevitable rant about "fake" cars. As you know, I am one of your "fools" but I can testify that a good rebodied car is 100% the same experience as driving an original. Without a doubt, I would love to own a totally original car one day, however as you say "buy what you can afford" and this ambition is becoming more and more unlikely as their values continue to rise unabated.

    K

    PS: That being said, I genuinely believe we should try and preserve a car like the PF coupe as they are great and becoming increasingly rare.
     
  2. Enigma Racing

    Enigma Racing Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 1, 2008
    1,111
    London
    Full Name:
    Kim
    + one
     
  3. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Dec 30, 2006
    2,862
    FRANCE
    ...nothing else to add.
     
  4. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
    7,564
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    Erik
    It's not descending at all, but rather being elevated to promote the preservation of real cars in their original form and to educate that these repli-fakes deserve very little respect.

    Unbelievable that except for the Dino some guy had a whole room full of frauds. :mad:

    >8^)
    ER
     
  5. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,233
    I think the same set of rules should be applied to small things and big things alike, that is what I call integrity - and perspective.

    For me the idea of enjoying the result once the damage has been done is warped, no matter what it is about.
     
  6. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 26, 2006
    2,834
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Geno
    The car is a fraud only if one tries to misrepresent it's authenticity. From my experience people that own re-bodied cars or replicas are honest enough not to misrepresent.

    Geno

     
  7. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 26, 2006
    2,834
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Geno
    If I can have it my way I would not allow any more original Ferraris to be turned into cars they never were. I don't like it as many of you don't as well. But they exist and once done they are enjoyed by many enthusiasts with some well executed examples trading for a ton for money. $1MM+. Unfortunately for these non-original Ferraris the market is there. As values are increasing it is slowly becoming too costly to cannibalize your $300K GTE or your $450K PF Coupe to make a fake GTO.
    I agree about the PF Coupe. I am in the process of rescuing one right now. 1391GT.

    Geno

     
  8. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
    7,564
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    Erik
    Fully disagree - something created with the intent to deceive is the true definition of fraud. The dictionary could not be more clear:

    "FRAUD: A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities."

    These cars are masquerading as something else entirely and that's been done specifically in an effort to fool the observer. Whether the owner is open about it or not (and I don't find nearly as many hanging a sign in the window that reads 'Replica' or anything like that) the crime has already been committed. We shouldn't all need to be marque experts in order to determine the validity at first glance either.

    If the casual enthusiast happened upon this phony TR car at a show, a dealership or was lucky enough to see it on the road their first instinct is going to be to assume they'd seen automotive greatness. To then find out that it's not the real deal (assuming anyone is there to clarify) is really very disappointing. We see it time and time again where people come here with GTO photos, thinking they've had that magical moment spotting a legend, only to be told it is a rebody of some lesser Ferrari that was built overseas in the 1980s or whatever. Replicas simply steal the magic that should be reserved for the real thing instead.

    Then when it comes time for these cars to be sold we see all the exaggerated statements about eligibility for events and accurate parts content and such. It's really a fool's argument done in an attempt to inflate the value. In my opinion a 250 GTE rebodied as a GTO should be worth far less than its value in original condition, but sadly there is a market of people out there willing to perpetrate the fraud on the grounds that they simply can't afford the real thing.

    A local guy who has owns a few modern Ferraris rolled in to the annual holiday car show in a fake, Datsun-based Ferrari 250 GTO last year. I literally could not believe my eyes that he would buy something like that. Did he stay with the car to tell everyone it wasn't real, was there any signboard left to explain what the car really was - of course not! So throughout the morning I'd hear people telling the story of seeing a 250 GTO in a corner of the parking lot, none the wiser that they had just been duped. If I hadn't been there to enjoy the show myself I'd have volunteered to stand there and tell everyone who walked past that it was a fake.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  9. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,699
    Santa Fe, NM
    Unfortunately, this has not been not my experience at all. Typically, it is the lie of omission, or not correcting onlookers who are abuzz about the "real GTO/TR, etc" that is in front of them, or nonsense about "real GTO engine and drivetrain" when the "128" tipo is clearly stamped on the valve cover . . .
     
  10. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    27,188
    Paris / Chicago
    Full Name:
    Andrew Menasce
    I am not as convinced as you the prime motivation of a car as this TR is to fool bystanders simply because 99.9% them wouldnt know if seeing a 250TR is greatness, they would most likely say they saw an old Ferrari and would be more impressed with seeing a 458.

    I think the real motivation is to experience a vintage ferrari that is unaffordable to even 99% of ferrari chat members.
     
  11. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    14,831
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    There are owners of the real deal, who commission a reproduction of their real deal Ferrari so they can drive it around without too much worry. If you had a Ferrari valued at 15 million, would you want to take it out and park it while you had dinner? Does it make the owner of the real deal Ferrari a poser? Would you laugh in his face because he want to protect his investment? If you saw a reproduction GTO that was done perfectly I'll bet many of you could not tell the difference. If the owner told you it was a fake, but has the real deal at home, would to think less of him?

    Point is, reproductions are built for many reasons. Some are bought because getting a real one is next to impossible, others are built so owners of the real deal can drive around, and get the same experience of the real deal and not worry if the chick text messaging while driving smashes into them.

    We are not talking about fiero rebodies here.
     
  12. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
    7,564
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    Erik
    Absolutely and I wouldn't filter my comments in their face either. Also the number of these fakes built to protect an original is going to be a pretty small figure. The majority are built or bought by people who could never manage an original and that's their primary excuse.

    I don't even like the idea of putting an engine from a lesser 250GT into a TR or GTO while the real engine gets mothballed in a glass case in the garage. Remember this desecration of a beautiful original 250 GTE?

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-redline-restorations/285782-wheres-engine.html

    >8^)
    ER
     
  13. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 26, 2006
    2,834
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Get a grip man. We do not need you to define what fraud is. A replica or a re-body or a full reconstruction of what was to what is does not represent fraud unless the party attempting to sell it or enter into a rally/concours is representing it a the real deal. Ferrari and other manufacturers over years have been known to take their "once original" cars and change the guts out of them. You name it, they did it. When a private party decides to do the same it's all of a sudden fraud?
    You assume a lot. Motivation behind a reproduction car be for many reasons and possibly for some its to "look good" and to make some think their GTE is a $35MM car. If that's the story behind it than its a sad story. But in today's day and age it's very hard to fool people. Pulling up to an FCA event most will know instantly that a replica is a replica.

    Geno

     
  14. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
    7,564
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    Erik
    Apparently YOU do. It doesn't require a point of commerce for fraud to be perpetrated. Just because the owner's might not insist their car is an original or try to sell it as one doesn't negate the fraud of misrepresentation that occurs every moment from the point of creation.

    So it only matters if someone at an FCA event can tell the difference? What about the casual car enthusiast who doesn't have the knowledge to determine good from evil? Screw them, right? :mad:

    >8^)
    ER
     
  15. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    14,831
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Ferrari themselves could not tell the difference and certified a reproduction as real. Hmmm, that's some kit car..fraud or a test to see how much Ferrari really knows about their own product. I say test, and they failed. Do you honestly think you your self could tell the difference if Ferrari couldn't?
     
  16. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
    7,564
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    Erik
    Ahh - so if the fake is fake enough that it fools the experts that excuses the behavior? I didn't know that. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    The situation you describe says a lot more about the lack of integrity of the individuals perpetrating the fraud than it does about the experts failing their test in my opinion.

    If someone producing counterfeit currency gets good enough at their trade to fool the experts does that mean they should get a pat on the back instead of jail time when their operation is exposed?

    >8^)
    ER
     
  17. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2004
    11,501
    CT
    Full Name:
    Sean
    Conterfiet currency is fraud because it is used to unlawfully enrich someone. Selling a recreation as an old build because its fraudulkently claiming the identity of something much more valuable.

    Most people who drive recreations couldnt give 2 tits what other people think. Its not about avalue projection its about driving enjoyment.

    In any event these days all the pices are avaialble without chopping an original car. Make your recreation, using all new bits just dont put horsies on it an enjoy to your hearts content.

    Yo do know that allowing recreations or having some qualifications for them, wuld save old cars from being cjhopped and would allow an original old build(if any actualy exist in this time) to be saved for psterity.

    Not everyone gets a nice car to fool other poeple or even cares what others think or reckognise, most drivers as opposed to poseurs have a cool car purely for thei own driving pleasaure. I have never heard the owner of a copy car ever claim its anything other than what it was.

    As to the unscupulous, you are not going to stop them from stealing art money or anything else.
     
  18. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
    14,831
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    No, it's the fact that you are putting the fiero kit cars into the same category as a properly done recreation. So what if they used a smashed up doner car as a base. It's better then that entire smashed up car going to the scrap yard to be crushed never to be seen again. Which is what a lot of these cars were.

    Would you consider Jim G's 0846 a completely original car? Or would you consider it a recreation of 0846 using a few bits a prices of the original..I Personaly consider it a recreation, but that is just my personal feelings, but it is one hell of a car and Ferrari themselves consider it one of there own, so I cant argue with it.
     
  19. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    27,188
    Paris / Chicago
    Full Name:
    Andrew Menasce
    Check Frank Abagnale story.
     
  20. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
    7,564
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    Erik
    You've not been paying attention then. Did you miss the story tbakowsky just relayed of a fake car being presented to Ferrari for certification? How much more bold can it be than that?

    I haven't mentioned a Fiero-based kit car once here. You might feel those are the only cars deserving of the 'fake' label but that's hardly the case with me. A car that has been re-bodied to misrepresent its true identity is still a fake in my mind no matter how many Ferrari parts are under the skin. I don't agree that something has been saved when a GTO or TR gets created from another old Ferrari. Quite the opposite - the cachet of the true originals is being stolen in that process.

    Different situation entirely - #0846 isn't trying to be something it never was. The car has been restored to its original glory after initially being lost to the scrap bin. Of course it is not original but it is certainly not a fake.

    Frank was never rewarded for his frauds, he was imprisoned when caught and later cut a deal with the government to obtain his freedom again in exchange for his help. They recognized his talents but it was only when he decided to cease his illegal activity and use his knowledge and abilities for good that he began to be rewarded. It's just like a red hat turned white hat computer hacker.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  21. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2004
    11,501
    CT
    Full Name:
    Sean
    #46 boxerman, Jun 1, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
    Do you even own a car.

    Fake ferraris or recreations have been presented as old builds since at least the early 80's.
    Trying to dis recreations is not going to stop that in the least.

    Look at the lynxx xkss everyone knows what they are, they dont pretend to be jaguar xkss's. Look at a poutsang bugatti t35, or aSPF gt 40. No one pretends they are old builds, they are built and ejoyed for the pure driving pleasure. When you grow up and drive some noice cars you will understand moderns cant do what older designs can in terms of viceral driving pleasure hence recreations.

    Plus probably half of the classic ferraris on a historic racing grid are in effect recreations, the original car is long gone, all that remains is a chassis plate or claim to a chassis number.

    The Bugaatisti have the right idea, they like to keep the flame alive, recreations are accepted by them. Their view is its not when or where it was made, but how it was made and with what materials that counts. Wooden boat people are the same, as well as those who rebuild or recreate ww2 fighter aircraft.

    Reacreations save old cars from being chopped and eliminate fraud as responsible recreation acceptance has standards. Just look at a SPF GT40 or a Dutton bugatti.

    Fraud is presenting something for sale and presenting it as somehting its not, happens all the time at auctions especialy with american cars. Of course in classic ferrari circles all the good cars are known, so a recreation cant just suddenly pop up as an old build. Now f you think acar buff might be fooled. frankly when I drive my ferrari I could give two tits what other people think its worth, its for my driving pleasure and that is mostly why recreations are built.

    The only bad part in ferrari circles is chopping otherwise good old cars. Proper authentic certified recreations dont do this. There is a reason why most owners of the famous cars have arecreation for driving pleasure, you dont really want to destroy a priceless artifact, but to preserve it for poesterity. From a driving and race spectator perspective a recreation is better it can be driven hard as originas were raced in the day and as you would not do with a 30 million car.

    Passing off arecreation for sale as an old build is fraud, always was.

    I say save the old cars from being destroyed through attrition or chopping and create standards for recreations.
     
  22. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
    7,564
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    Erik
    I own three cars - how is that relevant? Are you suggesting I must own a real GTO in order to feel aggrieved about the creation of fakes and imposters? Silly argument, if so.

    We obviously have a drastic difference of opinion here and neither of us will convince the other of our position. I will continue to express my dislike of fake Ferraris that attempt to impersonate their better, more successful and more desirable siblings no matter what they have been based on. If you and others choose to accept them as the sum of some parts, or lesser of two evils, then good for you guys.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  23. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    27,188
    Paris / Chicago
    Full Name:
    Andrew Menasce
    Exactly, the pros recognized in that case they somebody was better at their own game than them. He was given freedom (which considering how much money he had stolen was a reward in itself) and now work with the same institutions that were going after him.
     
  24. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2004
    11,501
    CT
    Full Name:
    Sean
    #49 boxerman, Jun 1, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
    I agree we are on different sides. I notice that its mostly non ferrariowners and those with no track car who get all hit up about recreations. There are 2 types of ferari owners and 2 subtypes within each of these. There are those that drive the older cars those that drive the newer cars, those that drive a ferrari to display wealth and those that drive a ferrari purely for the performance and driving enjoyment they bring.

    Usualy a driver of an older ferrari who is into it purely for the experience of the drive(an enthusuiast), has no issue with making ther car better or getting a better one. Its usualy a personal driving enjoyment thing not at all about wealth display or worshipping the alter to enzo or wahtever the latest marketing theme is.. In fact its not necessarily an owning ferrari thing other than that a long time ago a ferrari really was streets ahead, so it tended to be the best performance car you could buy and so if you want a great performng older car with 12 cyls and full sounf fury from the 50's through 80's its likely to be a ferrari..

    If you are into a particular type of driving experience as exemplified by ferrari, then a recreation for 500k takes you to the next level of driving experience for that particular era if you dont have over 3 mill to spend. In my case I tend more towards the mid engined theme and running hard on track as roads are too dangerous and policed, so I really like a SPF GT40(which is a real licensed continuation), but frankly If I could get a nut and bolt copy of a 288(not arebodied 308 but the real thing) and it was called a piero or whatever instead of a ferrari I could care less. To me its about what the thing is, not what it represents to others.

    Now some say get a modern car. But moderns are anaodyne computer driven things, and dont have a stick or feel. I like the raw more viceral driving experience of an older design, and there was a sweetspot in the late 70's though 80's when cars were still all mechanical and raw, yet had performnace to match the moderns if you know how to drive.

    I am personaly gainst chopping older ferraris, and as I have no spiritual objection to recreations I think it would be wise to accept and santion them, thst way we can ensure they are built to certain standards. Ie no old car chopped and built in the manner and with materials to the exact dimensions and specifications of the car being recreated. A recreation also has its own known identity so is very unlikely to be confused with an old build.

    If you think of it, its the long term future of classic racing. I mean how much of any of those old racers do you think is really left. That data plate and provenance game is a $$$ value thing, and thats fine for wealthy collectors to play most expensive. To me the value in old car designs is in the driving experience.

    The FIA agrees and sanbctions new builds now. You would be amazed how many old race drivers have recrations to blast around the track in. Considder that no everyone owns an old car or old design car to impress others, mostly its for pure personal driving enjoyment.
     
  25. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,233
    Can you name three? I've documented maybe 150 fakes as good as I only can and even if there have been many claimed cases, I have never found an owner who would own a real deal plus a replica to keep it safe. Quite the opposite, I have found many owners who frequently drive a multi-million dollar car and I think this is because they want the real experience and they can afford it!
    A point built upon fictional examples quickly evaporates. There is no "same experience" in the fake world, and therefore driving a fake instead of a real car just makes no sense.
     

Share This Page