Slow window Dual Relay Mod ! Amazing

I am not much of a wrench and don't want to F up something along the way. Is this easy to do?

 

So where did you connect the - and +? The negative went to the screw holding fuse panel? Where did you find a spare positive terminal to connect to?

 

Also, did you "hide" the wires running from the door to the body with some kind of sleeve? Maybe I'll just use black wires to make them less obvious.

 

I didn't notice you had a GT4, so the answers to my previous questions won't help me much.

However, I tried to find DPDT 12V automotive relays today, and it was really difficult. Where did you find yours? Crallscar relay link is dead. I'm not an electrical expert by any means, but it doesn't look like Paul's relay diagram shows a DPDT. It looks like SPDT which are very common in the Bosch/Tyco automotive style. I bought his electrical diagrams a few years ago, but they don't give any specifics. Shouldn't a DPDT have more pins? Like 6 minimum.

 

Looks like SPDT is correct according to Paul's relay chart.

 

The relay you need for the window motor speed up is indeed a SPDT... or rather a pair of them. B1 pin out

I buy made in the USA Hella relays all the time for a project I do for another car group. The Hella 4RD is a true 40A ice cube relay with a mounting tab/bracket. Part number is 960 388-46 or 87499 (US).
The sockets if you want to build it out that way is part number H84989021 or 87127 (US). The 6.3mm terminals for that socket are part number 70123503 or 87272 (US)

I buy from a local vendor but you can get them from Susquehanna MotorSports, Amazon, eBay...
http://www.rallylights.com/hella/Hella_Relay_List.aspx

Rick

 

I bought the kit someone else made before I saw Paul's origional post.

Now, after install, my windows almost shoot right up and out of the door and land on the asphalt when going up and almost shatter when hitting the bottom tops, by comparison to pre-mod.

I am sure this version will do the same.

 

As I wrote in the tech section I worked on my pass. side all day today and blew the fuse twice. I checked the wiring twice and it was per the drawing on the tech thread. It seems I may have a different switch or something because the fuse blew as soon as I pushed the window switch. By the was I have pre-birdman glass fuse modification so the fuse block is OK. I do know they changed the switched in the later models but I would think the wiring is the same. Anyone got any ideas here.

 

Curious... Bit vague on your details. The diagram and relays on the recent tech session thread were written for a 348. That system was using a 4 pin relay (30/85/86/87). Paul's drawing for the 308's is for a 5 pin relay (30/85/86/87/87a). I'm not sure how the 348s are wired (learned not to assume anything about Italian wiring) so I'm not sure the 348 circuitry will work with 308 controls. Also not sure which system you used or how it was tied in. All you should be doing is using the existing switch output to provide control to the relays and not running the motors directly like before. So are you using Paul's 308 5 pin relay setup?

Rick

Rick

 

My suggestion is to make a bench test before installing, that way you know if the problem is the car wiring or the relay wiring. You just need a 12V battery and 12V motor. You can use any small gauge wire, since it's just a quick test. The wires going to the switch per Paul's diagram are just seeing + and - from battery, so just touch them to the same terminals that power relays. Don't do what I did and use a battery to connect switch wires to and a seperate battery to power relays. It won't work.

Also, maybe it's obvious, but unless you are using sealled relays, you have to water proof these things, as the doors get water in them. Unless you don't wash or get caught in rain.

Steve, you should be measuring 12V across the wires coming from the factory switch(with switch activated) and going to the motor. If you get 12V there and have problems with added relays, then you did something wrong in your wiring. The 75-79's have different window controls, than 80-85, but I would think you still end up with just two wires going into passenger door?

I personally don't like the 348 writeup because you are still pulling + from the old wiring and grounding to the door(this is true of all accelerators I have seen for sale). With Paul's setup, you get a "fresh" + and - from the fuse panel. Somebody more knowledgable have a different opinion?
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I used the 4 position relays as used on the other thread. I'll go back and build it with the 5 position relays. As to my window switch it has 6 positions on it. They are original for my 1977.

 

The best window mod is to move to a place you don't need to roll them up

 

Not everyone who wants faster windows enjoys doing this type of wiring so I support the efforts of Frazer Smith who sells the 4 pin relay kits. http://www.FerrariWindows.com

Note that 4 pin relay mods enhance the ground, not both sides of the circuit, i.e. power and ground. Because this mod doesn't require running any wires through the door hinge, it might be a choice incentive for some plus make for an easier job. It should adequately enhance window speed for most owners.

I like Doug Crallscars use of a circuit breaker rather than fuses as with the relay modification, current spikes are much greater and can occasionally blow 15A fuses. My fuse panel is modified for modern ATO fuses so I uses plug-in ATO circuit breakers in the normal window fuse #8 and #9 (left) fuse positions. And I only ran a new power wire to the door and used a good at-door ground rather than running a new ground wire into the cabin. Many ways of doing the same thing.

Lastly, I used a limit switch to turn off the window at the desired bottom of travel because the motor plus gravity can run the window into the rubber stops ferociously. It isn't essential but I get carried away on details and the thud of the window hitting bottom bothered me. I also recommend replacing those rubber stops...got mine at the ACE hardware store.

And thanks for the realization to add relay part numbers to the drawings.

Post-lastly - window switch pins...4, 5, or 6. Some switches have internal connections while others require an external jumper wire. Otherwise the circuitry is the same and switches can be interchanged if necessary.

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http://www.FerrariWiring.com

 

The thin copper wires and old worn out relays must be lowering the voltage quite a bit on those old window electric motors. Less voltage may make them last longer as they heat up less. What would happen if an electric motor gets burn with the new, revitalized 12V? How much are these and how difficult is it to get them?

Just asking. I'll leave my slooooowwww windows alone for now.

 

The relay modification will NOT work when voltage is always applied to the window motors. I've done a search of OM diagrams and find that some cars, notably the early GT4 and late carb 308s may have window wiring which applies a positive stall voltage to the motors. The stall condition shorts the 2 motor leads together to prevent the motor from rotating from vibration without being it being energized. Any car with 3 window switches, i.e. a passenger window switch on both sides, is probably wired this way.

To test for this before making the relay mod and blowing fuses...use a bulb test probe or voltmeter and look for +12v at the motor leads with the ignition key on and the window switches off.

If anyone finds your 308 GT4 has this 'positive stall' wiring, shown on the left diagrams below, simply move the switch wires for both doors as noted below on the right side drawing. The upper wires in the drawing. Ground is black and the switch are shown in the off position. Follow the black lead through the switch to the motor and you will understand what is going on.

I understand why it was done on cars which have 3 switches, i.e. a passenger window switch on both sides. Having 2 passenger switches in separate locations is like a normal 3 way lamp switch on both sides of a room in house wiring, a pain with a different switch and extra wire. Ferrari reversed things to avoid running one wire. But if you are going to run a +12v wire into the passenger door, it makes changing the switch easy. I'll spend some time into drawing up a proper change for those cars. However, it may not be ultimately be as simple or even possible on 4 pin relay mods.

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Thanks Paul I'll check it out .

 

FYI - Paul's dual relay system did the trick for my on my '83 308, plus adding a #10 copper stranded direct ground wire from the dash area metal to each of the two motors through from the door jambs. No more greasy hinge pin grounding!!

 

So I assume that the 3rd switch needs to be wired similar to the pass. side switch. The PITA with the early cars is that the switch wiring is with seperate push on spade connectors and not a single connector. If you put a wire in the wrong terminal it blows the fuse. I could see when they moved the switches to the center console that it is a much easier wiring set up.

 

I installed new windowmotors and the windows are going up and down just like in a new car. No electrical modifications necessary at all.

One thing I would point out when making modifications is that you are interrupting a chain of old components which most likely have a very weak link somewhere. The obvious weak link are those white plastic wheels that the window cable runs on. I noticed that the strain on those components was quite high when cranking that window up and down in modern speed. The logical result is that the cable eventually cuts into those ancient plastic wheels and the crack etc cable gets lose and derails eventually.
I ended up replacing the plastic wheels with metal ones that have proper ball bearings. I found them at Home Depot in the sliding glass door roller section. Amazingly enough I found the exact same diameters as the plastic wheels.
Now I have new motors, new cables and new metal with bearing rollers. In my opinion, anybody who speeds up the windows which will result in higher usage of the windows shold take a close look at those components.