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Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by the_stig, Apr 4, 2014.

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  1. SuperJ

    SuperJ F1 Rookie

    Dec 22, 2008
    2,935
    Louisville, KY
    Full Name:
    Jennifer
    I went to the acupuncturist on a lark. I didn't go for a specific treatment. My friend always wanted to try it so I bought her a session for Christmas. She didn't want to go alone, so I bought myself a session too so we could go together.

    Side note. A couple years ago my insomnia started and shortly thereafter I started having rapid weight gain. Diet and exercise did not change but I was gaining 1-2lbs a week. In six months I gained 40lbs. Then I did slowly stop working out because I lost all my energy and working out felt horrible, whereas I had always enjoyed it in the past.

    I started working with a doctor and evaluating my blood work. Stress hormone levels were extremely high, pre-diabetic and all sorts of nastiness. The doctor said that looking at my blood work, it appears that I'm under extreme stress but I am not. I HAD been under extreme stress for several years but then life got much better. My health fell apart after the stressful period. It was as if my body was still reacting to the stress. She put me on all sorts of medication.

    That's a bit of the medical background, but let me explain how I felt. To use a car analogy, my throttle felt stuck. When I woke up in the morning, I was just under the red line. Through out the day with any normal work day stresses; I'd be well into the red. I'd have hours at 9000 rpm. If I'd try to do a light work out, I'd feel like I was going to peg the tach. I tried some meditation and felt I could get my rpm's down a little but I was always near red line. It was exhausting but my 'engine' racing wouldn't allow me to fully sleep either.

    I tried to explain this to the doctor. She saw me as broken. I saw myself as an amazing sports car with it's timing off and the throttle stuck. I could still pull myself but I was losing power, not burning fuel correctly and if not corrected soon, running the risk of dropping cylinders. I was not broken, I just needed that little turn in my timing adjustment. In my mind,I kept hearing the sound of a stuttering, dieseling engine. I wanted to yell at my doctor 'just get under the hood, and adjust the timing. Stop adding fuel additives! That is not going to help!'

    So that's where I was before going to see the acupuncturist. It had not occurred to me that Accupuncture would help with my 'timing/throttle' issue. I was just going to support a friend.

    During the initial acupuncture consultation, she (acupuncturist) went over my medical history and we discussed my issues. She did some tests (which I can't explain) and seemed to have a clear idea of what I needed.

    I'm not afraid of needles but I was a bit nervous, especially when she proceeded to put like eight needles in my ear! Each needle caused a different sensation of which most felt really good to a couple slightly uncomfortable quick moments. Then you just lie there looking like a human pin cushion for 45 minutes. That first session ran over time because some of the needles didn't want to come out. She just said my body was still working on it and left me alone again.

    After the session, I felt great. She suggested that I come back for a follow up visit fairly soon. So I was back in 2 weeks. Sleep and energy levels had improved.

    The second session I was much more relaxed and since I wasn't worried about the process I could observe what was going on with my body. The details of which would make this an even more ridiculously long response. :) Suffice to say, she turned off my motor and when she took the needles out, I was at idle. Sometimes you don't realize that you are missing something until you get it. I had nearly forgotten what idle felt like. My motor was idling!!!!!

    She felt that I needed to come back several more times, which I did. My throttle got stuck open a couple more times, but that had been my 'normal' for several years so I wasn't surprised that I might fall back into that old default. Each treatment allowed me to find idle easier and easier.

    It's easy to turn off the motor at night to sleep. Everything's fine, tucked away in the garage. When I wake up in the morning, I'm ready to go!

    2 months and 4 sessions; I feel like a different person (and I stopped all the medication). I've started working out again. I have the energy to do so! I feel amazing! When I need those 12 cylinders to hit hard, I've got em'! I AM an amazing sports car and this engine can purr at idle or scream at 9500 rpm! I wish I had found her sooner. Redlined for so long is not good for any engine, so I am going slowly and mindfully back into full racing form, but I am getting there!

    The acupuncturist wants me to come back in a month just for a quick check-in. She thinks after that I will only need to come in when I feel it's necessary - maybe once every six months or once a year.

    Long response but I didn't know how to edit it down. My point is gentlemen, sleep issues may be a symptom of a bigger problem. Solve the problem, symptoms go away. I hope you find relief and a solution!
     
  2. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    4,425
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Jennifer, I'm glad acupuncture has helped you.

    You are correct, symptoms are just signs of imbalances or possible pathology which are the actual causes of symptoms. Treating symptoms won't make their causes go away. To get to the root causes also requires good understanding of how our bodies work, why we experience a health issue and how the proposed treatment(s) can fix the root cause(s). It is this matching of the mechanism(s) of the treatment with the root cause(s) of our health issues that determines the likelihood of success.

    Using a "motor analogy" does help to describe your sensations and experience. This gives you an idea whether the treatment is heading the right direction. However, you also need to understand the medical situation and treatment in a factual manner and not with analogies.

    Acupuncture is considered a "complementary" treatment and not necessarily a full addressing of underlying medical issues. For instance, some stimuli can release neurological agents that counteract effects of a neurological symptom, but that does not mean the original root cause is corrected. Acupuncture will also not correct gross nutritional imbalance or a physical injury, internal or external. This is why a full western medical understanding of what exactly caused your symptoms (and why acupuncture helps) is needed.

    Acupuncture is a very useful therapeutic tool but its underlying mechanisms of its action are often not well-understood. For treatment to be thorough and to provide a patient with the means to avoid future problems the patient must understand exactly what caused the problems, why the treatment worked and how to maintain good health. This needs to be communicated in factual language that the patient can understand and use with other people. I am not necessarily advocating western medication, which can sometimes be short-sighted and can come with worrisome side effects but I am advocating western medical analysis.

    I grew up in a Chinese culture in a family of western medical practitioners and I retain a Chinese perspective in addition to western perspective. Chinese medical practice has had many more centuries of experience to perfect its workings but explaining how the Chinese system works has never been an imperative for their practitioners. Until just a few decades ago China was a huge feudal society where the privileged few kept to themselves, usually cloaked behind "mystical curtains". China invented many technical marvels way before westerners did but unlike westerners, the Chinese kept those inventions as mere marvels to benefit only the privileged. OTOH, Western Europe developed in a different direction, science was shared amongst working people and benefited from broad application by everyone. Innovation literally exploded in Western Europe through the commercial application of knowledge. That's why China (and other feudal societies) remained so backward, the privileged purposely kept knowledge away from broad society.

    Similarly with today's medicine, I think you'll agree restricting and impeding a full understanding of a person's medical health creates gross distortions of that patient's welfare.
     
  3. definitelysomeday

    definitelysomeday Formula Junior

    Aug 7, 2009
    655
    Ft. Lauderdale
    Full Name:
    Tom Kavan
    Calcium Magnesium supplements work for me at night, so does melatonin, valerian root and smoking a bit.

    Unfortunately none works for a long period of time. After a week or two of any of those, it is back to my monkey brain.

    I tried the acupuncture as well, and it did not do it for me. Maybe just had the wrong person and I should try it again?
     
  4. SuperJ

    SuperJ F1 Rookie

    Dec 22, 2008
    2,935
    Louisville, KY
    Full Name:
    Jennifer
    Michael,
    Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I also really appreciate you sharing your background so we can understand your perspective.

    As for using analogies versus medical facts. I'm not a doctor. I don't have that background. I can only share my POV and analogy/imagery/metaphor is how I may express that POV.

    A fellow member has a problem; I've had a similar problem. I share my experience with the intention of sharing a possible solution. If the OP or anyone else in this thread finds my experience helpful, then great. I am not advocating dismissing western medicine. When I first started having my own issues I sought the help of several MDs. I followed their protocol. However, I did feel that there explanations were myopic and shallow.

    As a side note, the acupuncturist that I went to is also a MD.

    In your reply, you said "I am advocating western medical analysis" are you suggesting that the OP do specific diagnostics to understand his sleep problems or are you speaking in generalities?

    Again, let me reiterate, how much I appreciate the thoroughness/thoughtfulness of your reply. As with all written responses, it is easy to miss the nuances of non verbal communication and the tone of our message. :)
     
  5. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    Still absorbing everything here with great interest so if I didn't respond to a specific post or point please don't think I skipped over it!
    Regarding Western medicine obviously you need to "trust in the technology" as my father likes to say but I'm a little hesitant these days. I had a GP that my wife and I really liked when this whole mess started some years ago. We were never able to come to a diagnosis of whatever was (is) going on with me and eventually it became so upsetting that he felt that antidepressants were in order. Unfortunately that was a very bad decision. Trusting him, and the technology, I continued down that path perhaps far longer than I should have. Two GPs later (probably not going back to the current one either) I'm off all medication and trying very hard to establish a baseline of some kind and figure out what to do next.
    Thanks again for all of the help in this discussion. Most appreciated.
     
  6. TexasF355F1

    TexasF355F1 Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Feb 2, 2004
    68,831
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    Jason
    Took a magnessium pill last night and slept straight through the night. Gonna try again tonight, so we'll see.
     
  7. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    Nov 8, 2003
    7,540
    So. Cal
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    Armen
    I usually use Melatonin (sp)? I just went to the store and boughtChelated Magnesium. Not just for the whole sleep thing. I do have muscle twitching and sore muscles. I read up on it and will be giving it a shot.
    I'll let you guys know...
     
  8. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    Nov 8, 2003
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    Armen
    So Far so good... I slept well. Now lets see how my muscles feel in the next few days.
     
  9. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    I will be eager to hear if this is helpful. I have the same issues you describe.

    good luck!
     
  10. definitelysomeday

    definitelysomeday Formula Junior

    Aug 7, 2009
    655
    Ft. Lauderdale
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    Tom Kavan
    Careful with the melatonin. Not a great long term solution because over time it can cause changes in your body's normal production and make you more dependent on the supplement. Let Google be your guide. Lots of stuff you can read on the topic.
     
  11. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    Nov 8, 2003
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    Armen
    I guess I shouldn't have said "usually" cause it was only a few times a year. I did read the effects. I do think taking chelated magnesium 250mg each night should be OK considering I do also workout. My body didn't seem too achy today, and my eye twitch did seem like it went away. My sleep was undisturbed also. So I think ill stay on it unless taking it evey night might not be the right thing. Let me?us know.
     
  12. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 1, 2003
    9,192
    eye twitch is simple stress, goes away on its own.
     
  13. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
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    Michael
    #38 4th_gear, Apr 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Jennifer, I just wanted to share what I learned with you all because magnesium deficiency seems to be a widespread problem that is unfortunately not being addressed. It's not at all expensive or complicated to correct.

    I experienced the same problems and frustrations you and others on this forum experienced. Aside from sleep disturbance, I had a whole bunch of other neurological symptoms. The scariest one was cardiac arrhythmia and I nearly blacked out a couple of times. Unfortunately, my family doctor and even cardiac specialists at the university hospital all drew a blank. They admitted me to hospital for full cardiac testing but found no heart damage even though they confirmed the cardiac arrhythmia. The head specialist felt I might have some issue with my cardiac pacemaker, the sinoatrial (SA) node, but could not find anything wrong with my heart. I ended up researching the magnesium connection on my own.

    Sleep disturbance is not always caused by magnesium deficiency but in the absence of other pathology, it is a prime candidate if you are older and/or experience a deficient diet, stress/hectic pace of life.

    As for your question "…are you suggesting that the OP do specific diagnostics to understand his sleep problems…?", the answer is a resounding yes. Only by understanding what's going on with your body can you interact meaningfully with the MDs and monitor your own progress after your doctor's appointments. You are the eyes and ears for your own health, your MD cannot be there all the time and their attention is split between you and a few hundred other patients. You have to take charge of your own medical case file. I keep a detailed record of all my ailments, tests and treatments. I keep an ongoing computer diary on medical issues and I obtain copies of all my test results as well as MRIs, ultrasounds, X-rays and CTs (try not to have unnecessary CTs - they are much higher dose than x-rays). When my MD asks me a question I look up my records on my iPad.

    It's good that your acupuncturist is also an MD. See if you can coax him/her to explain your condition and explain how acupuncture helps. Also ask for references to read up on.

    I have several hobbies which include driving and I do everything I can to enrich my enjoyment of those hobbies. OTOH, I also have a few medical issues, each of which can potentially sideline me from my hobbies. When I look at it from this perspective, I think it is well worth my while to take charge of my medical concerns and learn as much as possible about them instead of hoping my doctors will catch the problems before they do permanent damage. Some doctors can get defensive when confronted by a patient who seems to "know too much". What I try to do is avoid telling them what I know and prod them to consider what I suspect instead. I try to let them run with an idea. If they don't respond I just find another more communicative doctor. My current MD is very good.

    BTW, it's good to see some people are getting positive results with Mg supplements. I am taking Mg citrate in powder form. Each morning I place 1 teaspoon of powder (makes 200 mg of high absorption Mg) in a plastic cup. I dispense half of it in the morning and take the second half later in the day. Splitting up the daily dose is less likely to upset your stomach. The powder dissolves in warm water and has a raspberry flavour. I add a bit of fruit juice before I drink it. I also take Calcium-Magnesium tablets.

    As usual, each person has to gauge his/her own Mg intake requirements. Always start low dose.
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  14. Xcheckme

    Xcheckme Formula 3

    May 10, 2011
    1,682
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    Lukas
    How long has it been since you stopped taking these? I know people that it took months to get back to normal sleeping patterns after stopping certain medications that affected brain chemistry.

    I would highly recommend that you try acupuncture as well. Best of luck!!!
     
  15. TexasF355F1

    TexasF355F1 Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Feb 2, 2004
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    I bought a bottle of melatonin a few weeks ago. It hasn't done anything for me.

    I did not take magnesium last night and I've been up since 5:30am.
     
  16. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    Coming up on 6 weeks. The antidepressant has warnings about drug interactions out to the 5 week mark.
    I had taken Lunesta every night for probably 5 years.
    A little hesitant to discuss these things on a public forum but I'm desperate and Fchat has always been an awesome resource.
     
  17. SuperJ

    SuperJ F1 Rookie

    Dec 22, 2008
    2,935
    Louisville, KY
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    Jennifer
    ^^^^ I understand your hesitancy. When people are willing to share their struggles, they are usually helping others find solutions as well. Countless times I have gathered really helpful information and insight from threads, to which I did not contribute.

    The other thing that I wanted to say regarding sleep issues is I believe that our subconscious speaks to us in our sleep. So is there anything in your life that you are avoiding looking at that may be bubbling up in your sleep?

    Best of luck in finding relief and wellness!
     
  18. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    Vicious circle I'm afraid. Loss of income causes stress. Stress causes health issues. Health issues cause further loss of income causing even more stress. Economic circumstances AND health issues cause relationship difficulties creating more stress causing worsening of health issues. It just goes round and round and the exit strategy is hard to find.

    Specific to sleep issues I have always had trouble falling asleep but not generally had trouble staying asleep. Now I don't sleep even when very tired and the least upsetting (although still causing problems) way of dealing with it seems to be to just stay up until exhaustion (I guess) takes over.
     
  19. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    Peace and happiness to you Stig. I'm a retired therapist and health has always been my top interest.

    Back to basics: The eyes' exposure to light is the main trigger of our sleep/wake cycle. The color/wavelength of light is important here. Midday light is heavy into the blue 5000 kelvin heat range. Sunrise/set is more red at 2000k.

    Computer, phone, TV screens, etc are heavily blue, violet blue. Research is proving exposure to be quite impactful on mood and circadian rhythm cycles. Not in a good way.

    Turn off all screens by 7pm! Or don't look at them anyway. Start dimming the environment, especially kill any fluorescent or bright blue lighting. Your sleep room should be pitch black, quiet as possible. Black out shades if there are street lights. Or wear a sleep mask. The room should be on the cold side--60 or less.

    Have a wind-down routine at nite--no exercise at night. Reading is good. Quiet house.

    If your bedmate is distracting or disrupting your sleep, sleep elsewhere, as long as the environment and bed are right.

    If you like to eat sugary treats, do it at night. Sugar is a relaxant, contrary to mythology. No chocolate at nite though, better a big doughy sweetbread or cake or cookies after dinner. Go to bed with a full stomach. Camomile tea is good before bed.

    Learn meditation, it will teach you to quiet the mind and simply be in the moment.

    G'luck

    M
     
  20. gurslo

    gurslo Formula 3

    Feb 25, 2008
    1,524
    Connecticut
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    Peter
    Thinking about how you can't fall asleep can keep you from falling asleep. It is frustrating.
    My son takes melatonin about 1/2 hour before bed and sleeps soundly. He had/has trouble falling asleep, once asleep he seems to be ok.

    I agree with the have a blood test done recommendation . Even if you already had one your body changes. Maybe seeing a different DR for a fresh diagnosis might shed some new light.

    Best of luck to all of you,
     
  21. jumpinjohn

    jumpinjohn F1 Veteran
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    Mar 22, 2013
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    John
    #46 jumpinjohn, Apr 16, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
    Just found this thread. How is the sleep progressing? Now I am curious if you tried the different Magnesium and if that was as helpful as the first time you tried it.

    Totally get the circularity of the issue. Just trying to find the right place to interrupt the cycle can be really frustrating.
     
  22. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    Been taking the Magnesium every night - still the same one - and I've moved my Potassium Citrate from dinner to bedtime with the Magnesium.
    Had a couple of nights when I have fallen asleep okay but woken up one hour later and then been up until 6:00am.
    Adding a few more supplements to my regimen and have an appointment next week to go over blood work - which all looks normal as far as I can tell.
    This would be so much easier if there was a test that pointed at something - anything - because then you can move to fix it. So frustrating and so disheartening.
    Missed media day at the NY Auto Show yesterday because I knew I would not be able to get up and out to get there.
     
  23. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    4,425
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Are you older than 40? There are other causes of sleep disturbances and another common one I am familiar with tends to come on with age. Has anyone in your family ever experienced thyroid-related problems?

    Thyroid problems can cause sleep disturbance. Thyroid imbalance is becoming more common in society and often becomes noticed after 40. The condition can be sub-clinical, meaning its symptoms can be very subtle and confusing to non-experts, especially because it affects your entire body. It can take multiple blood tests to confirm.

    Discuss this possibility with your GP and see if there are indications that warrant a followup with an ENT or endocrinologist. Thyroid problems, stress and magnesium levels, sleep disturbance, amongst a host of other things, are all interrelated. Altering one factor may temporarily affect one or more of the others - a wholistic approach is required.
     
  24. the_stig

    the_stig F1 Rookie

    Sep 19, 2005
    3,477
    Winner winner!
    I've been thinking "Thyroid" for quite a long time.
    Unfortunately I've no way to track down hereditary issues and, yes, I'm well over 40.
    My GP is useless on this question. His response is that we've checked TSH and that Thyroid is a women's issue. Seriously. That was said in my last visit. Emphasis on LAST visit - I like the guy, he's young, easy to deal with - but he also dissed one of the leading Thyroid specialists in the country saying "carpenters are always going to see something as a hammer / nail problem". I was blown away that he pretty much dismissed everything I said on this topic. He'd never been that way before and was usually easy to lead in any direction I wanted to go.
    My TSH and free T4 are normal, always have been - but a list of Thyroid symptoms found on a web site and reviewed by me, my wife and my daughter all separately is eerily close to what I experience on a daily basis. Which, by the way, is far more than just sleep issues. Basically I feel like crap a good deal of the time and this has gone on for about 8 years now.
    As for Endocrinologists I'm having a very hard time finding any who don't think that Thyroid diagnostics begin and end with the TSH and that low Thyroid treatment can only be done with Synthroid.
     
  25. I<3strippers

    I<3strippers Karting

    Apr 22, 2012
    102
    VIR
    I've struggled with sleep my whole life. I'm an active, healthy, 24 year old male. I've found that black out curtains are an absolute must.

    I also have 2-3 apps on my iPhone for "relaxation" that work well for helping me sleep.

    One of the very few things I've noticed help me tremendously is thunderstorms. I like to listen to Rainymood.com
     

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