Should I get a new C7 Corvette?

I mention the R8 because you question whther Vw makes any desireable high performance high performance products. While not available here for a while Vw also makes the Golf R32. they now also own porche.

As to the "corporate culture crap" you gloss over the comparison between the sucess of VW to GM, which i maintain is directly related to coprate culture .

As to comparin g an R8 to a Vette. Someone who values orriginal design, quality exectuion, and a whole host of other factors may well prefer even the V8 R8 to a vette. I could say that the only thing the Vette has over the R8 is objective performance numbers. Yes I agre that Gm goes for volume on the vette. That is why I compare its build to the build of other volume produced cars and not to the build of niche products like say a lotus. While I dont personaly consdier a TT coupe to be desirable, its build is streets ahead of any vette.

The ATS V will undoubtably be a giant slayer, but like the CTS V is going to sell in very small volumes and be a halo product. Dropping the vette V8 into a small car is a great hot rod for a very limited market.

The corpration lives by the volume product in each category.

The ATS by all acounts has a superior chassis feel to the 3 series, but is seriously(by all accounts) let down by its motor. The 4 cyl to quote one rag may put out the requisite HP but its exactly at a specific revs, as opposed to the BMW 4 cyl which has a wide power band and is smooth. The 6 Cyl caddy does not come with a stick and its motor does not compare to the BMW. To me its an example of the talent is there at GM and they got it almost right once again.

The interesting car will be the 2015 camaro based on the ATS. It raises one of those quandries do you buy the current ZL1 which may eb the last of the real mohecans or wait for the ATS version which may be dynamicaly superior but lacking that fantastic concept car design in the name of being more useable.

The only new camaro I have tried was V8 auto. I loved the4 design and the car felt "special" but that pertrain setup sucked. Maybe the LS1 version is much better. the stock SS suffered from having atoo tall rear end ratio and a tranny that locked up into too high a gear too soon as was reluctant to donshift unless reall prodded. So the numbers on paer may have been there but trundling down the highway at say 80 a 6 cyl chrysler 300 felt on part throttle far more responsive. This si thetype of gripe I have with GM, they set cars up to pass fuel economy regs which seriously compormise real world driveability, other manufaturers including domestics do not.

So yes maybe the LS1 gets oast those faults no iof the rags are to be believed, but its how many years intoit he production run, why not just do it right. The Fiero int he last two years was a good car, but by then it had been killed. The solstice could have been great with a smallblock, or even a great V6. The ATS may morph into something excellent, but why will it take 5 years to get there. The XTS by all accounts drives really great, but its let down by a motor that really should not be in a large caddy.

Back to the CTS, I think its safe to say that a CTS V wagon is perhaps one of the coolest cars on the planet, and the CTS coupe is a stunning design. But interior quality while great for Gm is still behing say a great 5 series. But yes if I had the extra scratch I would go for a CTS V wago with the hennesy upgarde, we really will not see its likes again, and I have a penchant for the extreme and unusual. But Gm has got to get the regular stuff right and better.

look at Honda, they slid for years, the new Civic actualy even sold Ok but it was correctly panned, 2 years later they redid the car. Gm needs to be similarily on its game. if Gm was on its game it would be comparatively what VW is today, and a caddy would be an Audi R8 or lexus.

As to how the sausage is made, i think its Bismark who said that once you have seen sausage is made you will be changed for life, I could say the same about a condom factory.

What I care about is how the food tastes and how its presented... Lets see what we get to on the C7, is it another sausage or a masterpiece... I would love Gm to suceed, the difference between you and I is that I won't make excuses for them, I expect them to be better than the others not just in raw specs, I know they can do it, and unless the consumer demands it they will maintain their malaise. If GM cant get out of its torpor it should go out of bsuiness because of competition, as you know competition makes the herd grow stronger.

I'll weigh in on ford and Chrysler. I think trucks aside Ford products are very good but overhyped. The ecoboost motors I tried were not exactly gems in refinement and the power felt overstated. But at least they are doing it on their own and their small cars are truly competitive, the fusion is nice and more or less equivalent to the asian competition if not standout. Lincoln to me is lost, no real product unless you put it in the same niche as say Ininiti. But ford has the talent and msucle to continue to develop new relevant products in genral and seems set to do so. Their strengths remain trucks and they show great talent in small cars.

Chrysler shows what can be done with little resource and talent. The 300 is the quintessential american sedan reinvented fort he 2k's. It has a very good powerplant choice a lot of which are modern. Its drawback is that the design while updated and stunning has been with us for a while. They have not messed with the classic jeep and the updates make sense. the Cherokee is a standout US vehicle. They have completly lost the plot on the liberty. Can they develop new relevant products?

 

Chicago auto show.


"Chevrolet released its Cruze Diesel, which – after years of planning and development – matches the Jetta Diesel in every way, yet costs $3,000 more. Reached for comment, Chevrolet probably would’ve said: “Give it six months. You’ll find the three grand in the trunk.”

 

Wow, you hate GM. Obsessively so, given the length and breadth of your posts.

You go get that R8 V8 and revel in the subjective superlatives it offers.

I'll go with objectives I can measure, like weight, power, lap times, and price.

 

I'll go for both a balance of objective and subjective, see I just like driving, amd having fun...


Never said I would get an R8 or even that I liked one. I guess its part of your ongoing cognition issue. The R8 entered the discussion because you said there was not 1 high performance vehicle from VW, I think your words were name 1. Seems you really have an issue with German iron. Me I like them all, each in its own way.

The path to getting well is realising fault, that applies to Gm and individuals.

Interesting you can admit to valididty of that "toad" the GTR. You know its a limited prod car that is less expensive than a ZO6 or Zr1, yet its well built. I wonder how they do it.
And even the newer ones dont blow up tranny's.

But your absolute blind devotion to the vette cause has convinced me more than ever that I must try a C7. We will see whether its real or religion.

Meanwhile its frckin snowing in the Northeast so its either parking lot drifting in the equinox or skiing on sat. Makes the thought of summer and getting back on the track that much more sweet.

Have fun.

 

Stay safe in NE

 

Boxerman:

In all of your posts, the best thing you said was:"The talent is there at GM and they
got it ALMOST right AGAIN"!

I could"t have said it better in regards to GM......Almost is their Mantra!


Carnut: My wife just turned 50 in October, is 5'5" and weighs 115 lbs. and works
out 4 days a week. As with your girlfriend, she puts most 20 yr. olds to shame!
She sure is a sight for sore eyes!

Mark

 

Leno's review. I wish they would stop calling the Vette "good value for money". It makes it sound cheap or it could be better if we raised the price.

It's not what you want to think of when you think "Sports car". Hey... it's good value for money! I used to say that about my old MGB.


It is what is is. Stop making excuses.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKrQrAn_hNA]First Look: 2014 Corvette Stingray - Jay Leno's Garage - YouTube[/ame]

 

It is good value for the money. What is wrong with that? I view it as a virtue not an excuse. Not everyone can or will overspend for the minor increment in performance of a more exotic car. You don't see me trolling the 458 forum talking about how idiotic it is to pay $300k + for a car that does not exceed the performance of a Z06 or ZR1 by a comparable factor. There is something to be said for a sports car I can park at the airport. I would not dream of doing that with an F40.

 

Nothing wrong with it. I would like people who review the car to stop keep bringing it up.

"Well, you know... it's good value for money". Not a great reason to buy a car.

There's PLENTY of good reasons to buy this car. Value for money should be at the bottom of a reason to buy it. It's something you would say when reviewing a Yugo.

 

Thanks for posting the Leno video, more positive vibes for this car.

As to the VW/GM discussion above, although I have only skimmed it, I would make a few points. VW is run, almost owned, by a car guy who likes cars. GM is run by hired hands who like returns on investment and report to a board who like returns even more, many of whom may or may not even like cars. Big difference in philosophy.

VW has also bought a lot of their tech/quality/nameplates whereas GM does it all in house while downsizing for 30 years.

If things were equal at the top in the boardrooms the talent that does exist at GM could flourish and we would see more world leading vehicles other than the ZR-1. Brings me back to the post I made a year or so ago regarding what I still believe would be the best supercar on the market today if the leadership at GM were Piech-like instead of Wagoner-like.

10 years old and still better looking than anything on the market today imo;

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachments/ferrari-discussion-not-model-specific/1426741d1322253310-%2A%2A%2A%2A-gm-cadillac-commercial-ferrari-post-caddy.jpg


http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachments/ferrari-discussion-not-model-specific/1426743d1322253310-%2A%2A%2A%2A-gm-cadillac-commercial-ferrari-post-caddy-1.jpg

 

Car guys vs money guys, it shows in their factories

VW

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E35RvFeHL50]Phaeton Factory Dresden - YouTube[/ame]

VW Bugatti

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5XcAf-Psd8]National.Geographic - Megafactories Bugatti Veyron Super Car 720p hdtv TR - YouTube[/ame]

BMW Leipzig

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DOjACCjOCA]BMW - Designing the Leipzig Production Plant - YouTube[/ame]

Mclaren

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVGlqjCufMY]Inside the McLaren Technology Centre - DRIVEN - YouTube[/ame]


I have been to the Bowling Green factory, not exactly the same

 

Agreed that GM could do more, and were I at the helm it would be great to do a clean sheet supercar. But again value is a big part of the equation for Corvette. If I simply did not care about my endless supply of money, I might have a ZR1, but probably not. I'd have something far more exotic and just drive it without concern about door dings, hail storms, theft or vandalism. But the reality for me and most is that money matters and value is important.

 

The ironic part is that the car guys make more money than the money guys in the car business, and thye have the money to do new products.

 

I hear you, still a Zr1 or ZO6 aint cheap.
BTW whats your take on the viper?

 

A 2011 ZR-1 with an extended warranty is looking pretty tempting next winter. Mid-80's is a real possibility.

 

About a year and a half ago I had to make a choice between the 550 and a C6 z06. Tough car choice but the Corvette won out because of the practicality in the end. And I already have an f-car. I don't think I would ever sell either. Leaving the vette anywhere, there is alot to be said for that. Not to mention the kiks factor without the traffic control

 

True, short sightedness is never good. The new Camaro, this Vette, and even the volt are steps in the right direction. You need people with passion to lead companies, Jobs, Piech, Musk.....

This is a fun video of the VW delivery center at Dresden, almost matchbox like (mute it)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efHdFZNLtjA]TURMFAHRT VW Autostadt - CarTower Discovery - YouTube[/ame]

 

That is a cool video. Wonder how much a facility like that costs? Great way to advertise and generate interest.

 

This is one of those topics that after a while start becoming silly. For those like me who like this car nothing anyone says about it will change their mind, and I'm sure nothing I would say or anyone else here could change the mind of those who do not like the car whatever their reasons are for disliking it. One thing is pretty clear though a great many people do not buy a car because it is the best car or the fastest car because if they did there would be a whole lot of Ferrari's and others for sale. The mystic or the cache( like a women's handbag I was amazed that some cost 15K) have more to do with it than the real performance since most owners never use even half of it. I still love the look of the older Ferrari's though I would not own anything made past the 430 to me they lost look that drew me to them years ago. I am sure what I think will not stop anyone but me from buying a new Ferrari. My point is that this thread started out as should I buy a C7, my answer is the same. If you like it than go for it and if your mind was changed by reading this thread you never really wanted one.

 

Convertible version being revealed in a few days at Geneva show.


2014 Corvette Convertible Officially Confirmed for Geneva Motor Show - Carscoop

Now, does anyone have prior experience with Chevy on dealer mark ups over MSRP? Will these guys add 30K for the first year or try to sell at MSRP? This is why I didn't buy a Ford GT. Dealer insisted in 50K mark up.

If the price is right, I can see getting a Convertible with a manual.

Why?

Several reasons (although I still think the rear of this car is pretty ugly).

1) I'm sick and tired of the "mileage" game with exotics. If I want to drive cross country and not worry about how it will cost $10 grand in depreciation, I should be able to. I want something that I can drive without worry.

2) Dropping it off at any Chevy dealer to get a light bulb changed.

3) I would not buy the auto slush box. If it had a DCT, I would consider it. But, a manual will do me a lot better than an auto.

4) I think it looks pretty cool even though it has too many vents. The right color combo could help that. The same goes for the interior which in black and red is way overboard. Maybe someone in the aftermarket will solve the ugly tail lights.

5) Targa's are silly IMO. Either get a coupe or get a soft top. Removing the top is so Fiat X 1/9.


But, I refuse to pay over MSRP. I haven't paid over MSRP on my 3 new Ferrari's and one new Maserati. In fact, I've never paid over MSRP on a car ever. I'm not going to make this the first one as it's just throwing depreciation money away. Sorry Chevy.

So, what do you think dealers will do? Anyone have prior experience? Anyone reached out to a dealer yet? My thinking is that I might get a better deal in Vegas than LA.

 

There is no way you should have to pay over MSRP for a Vette Conv.

If necessary & you're serious,I can get you the "GM discount".

I'm sure there are some dealers that will try to milk whatever they can out of a high demand car,but the corporation really frowns on that because it really annoys the customer.The dealers,however are independent businessmen,and some just do pretty much what they please as long as they can get away with it.....

 

Yes, there will be $25k to $30k mark ups, just like with C5s, C5 Z06, C6, C6 Z06, C6 ZR-1.

Unless you are "in" with a dealer, you will most likely have to foot the extra.

 

Nope. Not gonna throw money out the window for that. In a year, they'll be begging to sell 14's as the 15's are coming in.

 

Totally serious. But, I don't want any discount.

I figured out I can replace this as my DD for my Maserati and wait 18 months for a F12.

If I bought this car, it would be my first American car in 40 years.

I don't blame dealers for maximizing profits. Nothing wrong in that. Gouging though is another thing... Maximizing profits can be selling at MSRP and adding on options to inflate the price. At least you get something for your money. Just marking it up, that's getting nothing for something.

I wanted a Ford GT. The dealer pizzed me off with his opening statement "If you aren't willing to pay 50 to 100 over, there's no point in talking any further". I said "thank you...CLICK". Never even considered buying a Ford again.

 

First American car in 40 yrs.

A step in the right direction.