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Shift Shaft Seals Procedure Clarity?

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by moysiuan, Dec 22, 2019.

  1. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #26 Rifledriver, Jan 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    I doesn't, not in a single way but then I understand how it all works.

    The detents hold in place the parts you are not adjusting. It is invaluable for adjusting the forks and selectors. Not the shaft.
     
  2. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    Understood, I think until I get under the car and look around I won't fully appreciate how this all sorts out. Should tackle this project in the next couple of weeks.
     
  3. Wade

    Wade Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes, as I recall, springs, balls and spacer in place and retained by the "tool". The tool simulates having the pan installed.
     
  4. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie
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    For me it is some time ago that I did this, but I am strongly in the opinion that you just should not only replace the shift shaft seals. There are certain maintance tasks that you need to combine. In this case to avoid doing tasks like adjusting you shifter and take out all the rods againif your silent block has been (half) shot.

    My golden tip is to replace your silents blocks as well unless they have been replace the last 7 years. When you do this you have easy access to your shift shaft seal and yes you need to drain both the transmission and engine at all time. Anyone who says different is wrong. When your shift shaft leaks it contaminated your transmission oil with engine oil and the other way around. ;)

    I have a whole recoring of the silent blocks and the shift shaft seal speaks for itself when you take of the oil pans. One last tip. Don't take out the seal with a screw driver else you can damage the hole where it sits in and you can get yourself a transmission case. Wathc out with the transmission pan there are 2 or 3 balls of the shifter rods with a spring that can fall out (Wade already mentioned it) :)

    HTH!
    Tijn







     
  5. conan

    conan Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2011
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    Right, the fork adjustments benefit from having the tool in place (will come to this in my thread soon). It could be done without the tool, but then you need to visually align the fork shafts and verify by taking a plastic pin or alu pin in each hole to center the fork shafts. Since the synchro sleeves may make some resistance, it might be a fiddly job. I recommend the tool to put the balls and springs in place.

    In case the forks are properly aligned in the gearbox, there is no need to use the tool for aligning the shift shaft, but with some misalignment in the gearbox, it is still a good idea to adjust the shift shaft while the balls and springs are in place.

    Now, I think it is a great idea to verify the synchro sleeve alignment vs the forks and detents in the fork shaft ...
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    And at the same time we can disassemble the transmission and inspect the syncro wear.

    If it ain't broke...don't fix it. There is nothing to be gained by intervening when it is working properly. The transmission has an oil leak. Fix it and leave everything else alone. If it has a shifting problem...fine but this is about an oil leak.

    Operation snowball.....where does it stop?
     
  7. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    So the AW Italian "kit" for the shift shaft seal replacement is as per the photo attached. Includes the two cup type seals, the shift shaft boot, gaskets and various oil drain bolt washers, but also includes two plain old O rings. Not sure what these are for, they seem to fit right into the cup seals? Are these just the orings used for some earlier 308's as I understand was the case?

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  8. MvT

    MvT F1 Rookie
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    Not sure where they are for, but on a QV and 3.2 it's something you do not need.
    Ps, check at least your rear silent block! You will have it in your hands anyway. If it has movement replace it. I'm almost sure Brian aka Rifledriver agrees :)
     
  9. MvT

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  10. conan

    conan Formula Junior

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  11. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    Yes, I will certainly inspect the rear silent block, and I have the replacement items so will probably just replace that one while the shaft is out. The shifting was perfect, so addressing the outside seal leak is my primary goal, the inside seal as a prevenative measure. At some point down the road I will remove and clean the shifter housing, do the front silient block, etc. and have the various parts in my "inventory" to do that. While there is some synergy in doing a whole shifter restoration while doing the seals, my car only has 65,000km on it, has always been inside stored, and still has its original convertible roof that is in near new condition, so the soft parts of the car are seemingly withstanding the passage of time. As the rubber parts show no deteriortion, and the car drives like new, other than having addressed fuel and coolant lines for safety reasons some time ago there is no compellng reason to replace things for the sake of replacement.
     
  12. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    The diagram shows two seals, front and rear being one of each referred to as part number 5. The kit included 4 seals, being two cup seals and two O rings. The O Rings appear to fit inside the cup seals, and the Verrell thread is not clear in that it sugests O rings were on earlier models, and cup seals on the later ones with uncertain dates of the transition by the factory, but then also seems to suggest one would install both the cup and O ring seals together with the O ring inside the cup seal lip? Kind of makes sense as the cup lip would than have some added support and sealing pressure from the inside O ring? Still a bit confused. I suppose I will just do whatever the current seal installation looks like, ie. if it has just the cup type seals that's what I will do. But if the cup plus O ring inside is the best practice, that I would want to know. My car is the 3.2.

    It would make as much sense to have the cup seal have the typical metal spring collar inside like other cup seals typically have to ensure pressure on the sealing surface, I wonder why the cup seal is just unsupported rubber in this application, I guess the internal spring type would be for rotational applications only, not like this application with both rotational and horizontal shaft movements? Maybe the O ring idea inside the cup seal is the compromise that works for this multi movement application?


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  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    O rings are for early cars. Ignore them.

    The outer and inner seals are almost certainly the same age and leaking at the same rate. Replacing the inner isn't preventative, it is stopping the mixing of the oils.
     
  14. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    Got it, thanks. I have taken the gearbox sump off, and taking a look in there, it all makes more sense once you look inside how all this works.

    Since I am trying to do this without removing the oil pan, I presume I can remove this plate with the four nuts that holds the 3 fork mechanism without affecting any other adjustments? Looks like I will need to do that to get reasonable access to the shaft hole from the gear sump side. Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  15. MvT

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    There is no need to remove it. Once you have the engine oil pan off you will see that you have plenty of access.
     
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  16. conan

    conan Formula Junior

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  17. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    Got the shaft out, not clearance issue in my car, just pushed the rod that goes into the car to the side, and the shift shaft slid right out.

    The silent block looked ok, but I thought I would replace it anyways. Bad call, the new bushing is so tight it started to flare as I used my vise and a mallet to squeeze it in. he new bushing is damaged (had it about 2/3 in then it stuck). Took it back out, and will try putting the bushing in the freezer, and heat up the shaft end and see if I can get the nw one in this way. Should have left the old bushing, the Rifledriver "don't mess with it if it working" advice is correct. Either that or I should have gotten an 8 ton press for myself at Christmas...
     
  18. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    Trying to do this without removing the oil pan...the dip stick stories put me off, so thought it best to avoid if it is possible.

    Worst case is I will end up having to take it off, but will see how things go. In the meantime, the project is taking longer as the silient block bushing replacement is giving me grief.
     
  19. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    So the cup seal on the front of the car came out and new one went in very simply, I put a wire through the hole in case the seal went right through into the oil sump, but that did not happen. The cup side on this seal was facing the inside sump, the flat side of the seal facing the front of the car, this is how the old seal was fitted.

    From the gearbox, I removed the plate to get better access to the seal hole. Using the wire as insurance to avoid the seal going into the oil sump instead of coming out, I picked out the old seal, it kind of flung out, so I am not sure which side the cup of the seal was facing? So to put the new one in, the one from the oil sump to the gearbox sump, which way should the cup side go? I think the cup was on the oil sump side, ie. to the front of the car (which would mean the front and rear seals both have their cup side sealing the oil sump).

    Anyone able to confirm which way this rear seal is oriented. Taking a dinner break soon, the shift shaft silent block was way to hard to deal with, and tired me out. I am not on a lift, so this is all a bit hard on the back. But I am encouraged that things seem to be going well so far. Thanks all for the comments and coaching.
     
  20. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    Well I am making a judgement that the cup side for both seals should face the oil sump, ie. the seals will prevent oil from coming out the front, and from going into the gearbox. I put the shaft in through the front seal, and pushed it in enough to reach the back hole, and therfore prevent me from pushing in the rear seal right through. Squeezed the seal and shoved it in there, a bit tighter fit than doing the fron seal for sure, but it popped into place.

    Bolted on the front shift shaft, and reattached the slecteor fork panel and the selector using the markings I had put on it, and it all seems to be as it is supposed to be. Now I am wondering how to tell if the shifter forks and adjustments will shift to perfection. I am shifting in the car, and it all seems to move about, perhaps the shift into fourth and fifth a bit hard to shift. But when the car is off it has always not been as smooth a shift as when things are running. Hard to know if I have it all set up right. Any further adjustment tips to eyeball things correctly?

    Bottom line is it certainly is possible to change both the seals in a Mondial 3.2 without having to remove the oil sump!
     
  21. conan

    conan Formula Junior

    Nov 13, 2011
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    Really great to see it is actually not that hard to get the seal in from the gearbox side.

    I have one comment that my old seal had the cup facing towards the gearbox, the same direction as the outer seal to the oil sump.

    The cup seal is supposed to seal on the two lip surfaces vertically (up-down when mounted) and I think (not confirmed by any means) there should be lips in quad configuration, but for some reason, Ferrari chose the same mechanical design for both seals.

    What I think, from my automotive electronics background, is that it was considered good enough by verifying the sealing ability in a DoE. Maybe they had the different options to select a quad seal, cup seal inwards, cup seal outwards and maybe also different materials. I don't know ... but one concern I would have is that the washer side is not satisfactory for sealing due to the risk that the casting is not good enough and that one should avoid points where three different surfaces meet.

    I think field experience can tell if this a real concern or not? Did a seal placement with the cup towards the oil sump pose any problems?
     
  22. MvT

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    Great to hear your progress! :) It is possible but if you have the internal leak, which is usually the case you will need to change both oils. It's more simple from the engine sump and you also can clean the bottom residu :) Great work!
     
  23. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    The only thing I avoided was the dip stick removal drama, I still drained the sump and will change both oils. But it does appear that removing the oil sump would not be much more incremental work.
     
  24. moysiuan

    moysiuan Formula 3
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    I will have to how this goes, an old thread suggested the cup seals should be as I did them, but I can see your point about the washer sealing surface. I probably should have waited for the F chat response, but just wanted to finish the job. Perhaps others can confirm the cup seal orientation for posterity and others can be guided accordingly.
     

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