News

Scottsdale 2020 Ferrari list

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Timmmmmmmmmmy, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. 500tr

    500tr Formula Junior

    Feb 28, 2004
    871
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Volkmar Spielmann
    Is this car worth $140k? No. It has some minor isues, non-original color (unfortunately), no pouch with books and no Red Book (although nobody needs this).
    In Europe you can find better cars for a lower price ;)
     
  2. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2010
    6,356
    Connecticut
    Full Name:
    Ken S
    maybe. But here’s your flaw. Evidently it is and was worth $140k!
     
    Texas Forever likes this.
  3. stevewak

    stevewak Rookie

    Jul 31, 2006
    42
    UK
    Auction estimates are the hammer price, not the final price. The auction houses now accept this after repeatedly claiming something 'beat its estimate' when comparing gross incl. premium (and VAT on that, in some cases) against the estimate. The reputable ones no longer do that. Reserve is often the low estimate - as a guide. But worked down on the day when things are not selling.
     
    375+ likes this.
  4. stevewak

    stevewak Rookie

    Jul 31, 2006
    42
    UK
    375+ likes this.
  5. srslusso

    srslusso Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 17, 2005
    833
    Encino,Ca.
    Full Name:
    Steve S.
    What was the attitude & attendance at Gooding
    & RM. they did not show much of the audience.
    I wonder if live streaming and ability to bid easily while at home have affected prices ?
     
  6. M. Brandon Motorcars

    Sponsor

    Sep 4, 2007
    1,392
    Houston, TX
    Full Name:
    Michael Foertsch
    Not restored to this standard. I personally inspected this car very closely, as well as have known it for the past few years, including when it won Platinum at Cavallino.

    If you know of “better cars for lower prices”, I’d like to know about them, because I’m a buyer for them. Of course, importing them over here costs a lot of money, not to mention costs for pre-purchase inspections, travel, and the like. This car was “right here right now” in the US.

    I was in the room when this car sold. There were 3+ bidders past $100K. Clearly, the market recognized the quality of this particular example.
     
  7. M. Brandon Motorcars

    Sponsor

    Sep 4, 2007
    1,392
    Houston, TX
    Full Name:
    Michael Foertsch
    The Bruno Acajou 84 400i at Gooding was utterly spectacular. Skeets Dunn was the consignor, and had owned the car since 1985. It had to be seen to be believed.

    I wanted the car very badly, and I was prepared to pay up for it. I stopped bidding at $85K. Never in a million years did I think it would do what it did. Then again, it was an unrepeatable opportunity for probably the finest 400i in existence.
     
  8. 500tr

    500tr Formula Junior

    Feb 28, 2004
    871
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Volkmar Spielmann
    You can contact me via pm...
     
  9. 500tr

    500tr Formula Junior

    Feb 28, 2004
    871
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Volkmar Spielmann
    I believe it is a very high standard, but has some issues I mentioned before. A complete pouch, original color combo and Classiche Certification are very important for me.
     
  10. SCantera

    SCantera Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 4, 2004
    1,737
    Naples
    308 GT4 Dinos were the ugly step-sister to it's predecessor the 246. Moreover they were introduced during the OPEC oil embargo when Ferraris sat on dealer showroom floors for extended periods. I never had any interest in the car until I drove one in 1985. I traveled to Ancona to buy a 76 BB [long story]. While there my Dad bought a Euro GT4 for a friend [$15k]. I drove the GT4 while in Italy and was really surprised by it's comfort and handling. The driver sits pretty far forward with your feet between the front wheels like a race car. I really liked the drive. Even more than the 246 I had a couple of decades later. Unfortunately GT4s being low valued were often not well maintained by their owners. And they rusted big time. Finding a good Euro car is probably gonna cost a lot since most examples need a ton of money invested to restore their glory. I have seen the Naples Euros that a Ferrari expert restores. He knows his stuff and puts out a high quality product. Just not many beating down the door to pay $150k+/- for a good example. Not sure they will ever gain the respect they deserve.
     
    500tr and Texas Forever like this.
  11. 19633500GT

    19633500GT F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 9, 2010
    6,356
    Connecticut
    Full Name:
    Ken S
    that’s a damn good write up. Same sentiment on driving on. The position and cabin view is really really good.
     
  12. BMWairhead

    BMWairhead Formula Junior

    Sep 11, 2009
    910
    Portland, OR
    Full Name:
    Ted
    Keep in mind, the Bullit mustang just sold for $3.5million...ANY of the dozens of Herbie VWs have sold for a premium. Cars that once belonged to Keith Richards, Elton John, Janis Joplin, Peter Sellers, etc. all had a celebrity premium that went with the sale. “Real” Batmobiles versus tributes...the list goes on...

    Provenance always adds value *to someone*. For some of us, provenance is Juan Manuel Fangio...to others it’s a Matthew Broderick movie from the 80s (that arguably contributed to the hype/bubble of the later 80s). The particulars might be different, but the concept is far from new or unique to the fake 250 California.
     
    Timmmmmmmmmmy likes this.
  13. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2004
    6,419
    SF
    And it was a manual gearbox.

    So often, everything is just right and then... it's an automatic.
     
    readplays likes this.
  14. JimEakin

    JimEakin Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 13, 2015
    856
    Mountain Living
    Full Name:
    Jim
    I never liked the 308 GT4 in pictures. But this car really looked cool in person. Bigger tires? I don't know, but it really looked like a hot rod to me. The auctioneer even mentioned this.
     
  15. M. Brandon Motorcars

    Sponsor

    Sep 4, 2007
    1,392
    Houston, TX
    Full Name:
    Michael Foertsch
    Nope. Correct size wheels and tires.
     
  16. 500tr

    500tr Formula Junior

    Feb 28, 2004
    871
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Volkmar Spielmann
    7.5x14“ Campagnolo rims were an option to the 6.5x14“ Cromodora‘s. Always 205/70 14 tires. Another option for late cars the 16“.
     
  17. italiancars

    italiancars Formula 3

    Apr 18, 2004
    2,464
    Hershey, PA
    Agree, it should be on the hammer price. And if you want to be truly accurate on the “Sale” price of a particular car it would be the Hammer price minus Sellers Fees. What the owner put in his pocket to part with the car.
     
    stevewak and aspenburghound like this.
  18. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,079
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    Most of you will have the Hammerprice app by now and already know the results but in case you don't, here are the Ferrari results from the big three. The sold price is in USD and gross incl. buyers premium.

    Key - Lot - Year - Make - Model - Chassis # - Auction - Low estimate>High estimate (USD) - Gross sale - % +/- estimate.


    54 1951 Ferrari 212 Inter Vignale Cabriolet 0159E Bonhams Scottsdale $2,000,000.00 $2,400,000.00 $1,930,000 -4%
    140 1954 Ferrari 250GT Europa 0377GT RM Scottsdale $1,500,000.00 $1,700,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
    253 1958 Ferrari 250GT Cabriolet Series I 0913GT RM Scottsdale $6,000,000.00 $7,000,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
    46 1960 Ferrari 250GT Cabriolet Series II 2075GT Gooding Scottsdale $1,300,000.00 $1,500,000.00 $1,462,500 Mid
    151 1962 Ferrari 250GTE 3547GT RM Scottsdale $400,000.00 $500,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
    131 1965 Ferrari 500 Superfast 6305SF Gooding Scottsdale $2,500,000.00 $3,000,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
    152 1965 Ferrari 275GTB/6C 7241 RM Scottsdale $1,800,000.00 $2,200,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
    154 1967 Ferrari 330GTS 10111 Gooding Scottsdale $2,200,000.00 $2,500,000.00 $1,985,000 -10%
    117 1967 Ferrari 330GTC 10639 Gooding Scottsdale $750,000.00 $900,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
    242 1967 Ferrari 330GTS 09781 RM Scottsdale $1,800,000.00 $2,200,000.00 $1,710,000 -5%
    249 1967 Ferrari 330GTC 9449 RM Scottsdale $500,000.00 $600,000.00 $500,000 Mid
    128 1971 Ferrari 365GTB/4 14821 Gooding Scottsdale $650,000.00 $750,000.00 $604,500 -7%
    146 1971 Ferrari 365GTB/4 14239 RM Scottsdale $475,000.00 $575,000.00 $467,000 -2%
    68 1972 Ferrari 246GTS 04460 Bonhams Scottsdale $250,000.00 $325,000.00 $280,000 Mid
    42 1972 Ferrari 365GTS/4 14779 Gooding Scottsdale $2,000,000.00 $2,400,000.00 $1,930,000 -4%
    115 1972 Ferrari 246GTS 04268 RM Scottsdale $325,000.00 $375,000.00 $340,500 Mid
    113 1973 Ferrari 246GTS 05534 Gooding Scottsdale $325,000.00 $400,000.00 $302,000 -7%
    255 1974 Ferrari 246GTS 07898 RM Scottsdale $300,000.00 $350,000.00 N/R $302,000 Mid
    257 1979 Ferrari 512BB Custom 28981 RM Scottsdale $225,000.00 $275,000.00 N/R $224,000 -1%
    133 1980 Ferrari 308GT4 15520 Gooding Scottsdale $90,000.00 $120,000.00 N/R $140,000 17%
    122 1981 Ferrari 308GTSi 36683 Gooding Scottsdale $90,000.00 $110,000.00 N/R $67,200 -25%
    149 1983 Ferrari 512BBi 44391 Gooding Scottsdale $225,000.00 $275,000.00 N/R $240,800 Mid
    136 1984 Ferrari 400i 54119 Gooding Scottsdale $80,000.00 $100,000.00 N/R $131,600 32%
    136 1984 Ferrari 512BBi 49803 RM Scottsdale $325,000.00 $375,000.00 $329,500 Mid
    45 1985 Ferrari 308GTS QV 54571 Gooding Scottsdale $80,000.00 $100,000.00 N/R $52,640 -34%
    139 1987 Ferrari Testarossa 68663 RM Scottsdale $95,000.00 $115,000.00 N/R $75,600 -20%
    60 1988 Ferrari Testarossa 78058 Gooding Scottsdale $90,000.00 $120,000.00 N/R $103,040 Mid
    102 1988 Ferrari 328GTS 75061 Gooding Scottsdale $90,000.00 $120,000.00 N/R $58,240 -35%
    41 1990 Ferrari 348ts 87357 Gooding Scottsdale $80,000.00 $100,000.00 N/R $72,800 -9%
    148 1993 Ferrari 512 TR 95077 RM Scottsdale $200,000.00 $250,000.00 N/R $179,200 -10%
    5 1995 Ferrari F512M 100154 Bonhams Scottsdale $275,000.00 $350,000.00 $313,000 Mid
    24 1995 Ferrari F355 Spider 104008 Bonhams Scottsdale $70,000.00 $90,000.00 N/R $77,280 Mid
    44 1995 Ferrari F50 103922 Gooding Scottsdale $3,200,000.00 $3,600,000.00 $3,222,500 Mid
    107 1998 Ferrari F355 Spider 110576 Gooding Scottsdale $80,000.00 $100,000.00 N/R $100,800 1%
    5 1999 Ferrari 360 Modena 119312 Gooding Scottsdale $120,000.00 $150,000.00 N/R $92,400 -23%
    43 2001 Ferrari 550 Barchetta 124119 Gooding Scottsdale $400,000.00 $500,000.00 $406,500 Mid
    262 2003 Ferrari 575M Maranello 133408 RM Scottsdale $100,000.00 $120,000.00 N/R $108,080 Mid
    267 2005 Ferrari 612 Scaglietti 138987 RM Scottsdale $100,000.00 $125,000.00 N/R $92,400 -8%
    20 2007 Ferrari 599GTB Fiorano 153410 Gooding Scottsdale $145,000.00 $165,000.00 N/R $145,600 Mid
    145 2014 Ferrari 458 Italia 3238 RM Scottsdale $200,000.00 $250,000.00 N/R $179,200 -10%
    240 2015 Ferrari 458 Speciale A 209707 RM Scottsdale $550,000.00 $650,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
    151 2017 Ferrari F12Tdf 224070 Gooding Scottsdale $850,000.00 $900,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
    158 2017 Ferrari 488 Spider 70th Anniversary 226326 Gooding Scottsdale $400,000.00 $475,000.00 $368,000 -8%
    164 2017 Ferrari F12 226318 Gooding Scottsdale $375,000.00 $450,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
    153 2017 Ferrari 488 Spider 70th Anniversary 226129 RM Scottsdale $350,000.00 $400,000.00 $362,500 Mid
    171 2017 Ferrari F12 Berlinetta 226891 RM Scottsdale $400,000.00 $450,000.00 $414,750 Mid
    57 2018 Ferrari 488GTB 70th Anniversary 233579 Gooding Scottsdale $375,000.00 $425,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
    245 2018 Ferrari GTC4 Lusso 70th Anniversary 229194 RM Scottsdale $375,000.00 $475,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
    124 2020 Ferrari 488 Pista 249378 Gooding Scottsdale $475,000.00 $550,000.00 Not sold Not sold N/A
     
    turbo-joe and BJK like this.
  19. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
    5,637
    I assume the estimates do not include buyers premium.In that case the cars sold below estimate should have bigger % difference from the estimated price.
     
  20. Dave330gtc

    Dave330gtc Formula Junior

    Mar 12, 2002
    601
    NW Indiana
    Full Name:
    David Smith
    GTE 3547 was fun for me to see as I had owned it back in the early 1980s. The car has fared very well over the years and I took some pictures to compare to the shabbiness when I had it in my garage. I understand it was bid to $360,000. I was happy to sell it for $12,000 back then.
     
  21. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,079
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    I could have explained better, the percentages are either a (-) for sold below the low thus calculated as a percentage under low or (+) for the reverse calculated from the high. Still notice how many sold (-) versus (+).
     
  22. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
    5,637
    Yes i understand that .

    I meant for example auction house estimate is 100- 120 (NOT including buyer fee)
    Car hammers at 80
    Auction house report sold at 88 (including 10% buyer fee) which is a drop of -8.33 pct from 100

    But the hammer price was -20% from the low estimate of 100.
     
  23. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,079
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    I am with you BUT wiser heads than mine have debated whether to compare net or gross and for my systems gross is so much easier and for that matter as relevant.
     
    Ferrari 308 GTB likes this.
  24. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 29, 2007
    2,103
    Riverside, CA
    Full Name:
    Timo
    I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
    It’s not the first nor likely the last time (vintage car) auction activity reviews compare apples to oranges. :rolleyes:
     
    Ferrari 308 GTB likes this.
  25. gcalex

    gcalex Karting

    Aug 16, 2010
    119
    Mostly New Hampshire USA
    Full Name:
    Alex
    Wish I could have taken a look at the two Daytona GTB/4s that sold.

    If the RM car was in the same state that it was when I took a look at it, then I have some crow to eat; I told the RM guys that there was no way it was worth even close to what they were asking for it ($500k at the time), if they did not fix it up any, then it seems I was way off.

    The Gooding car looked pretty good in the catalog, so given where the RM car landed (and assuming the RM car was not tangibly improved during the last year) it might have been either (a) a bit of a bargain, or (b) an indication that the market for nice cars is softening more than the market for less nice ones. Which would be interesting if true...
     
    Timmmmmmmmmmy likes this.

Share This Page