SC kit for 308/328/Mondial

Lou - did you have your 308 on the track at Willow Springs? If so, how did the supercharger do? I've only had mine at one track event so far, and it was a blast!

 

see here http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137510659&postcount=84

 

That does look fun... I was sorry to hear about the 348 getting tapped into a crash by a Porsche. But someone also just told me that you ended up with needing bearings or something wrong in your supercharger at the track later? You probably remember that I had to have mine rebuilt by Vortech under factory warranty because the impeller ended up out-of-round. What's the story on yours?

 

SC came apart (case seperated a bit) and the impeller got galled, volute/case took a little hit

Small issue with aluminum volute retainer tabs work hardening under high load. Looks as though the high RPM bad a$$ 4 valve Fcar motor puts a little additional stress on the original design aluminum tabs. Tim @ Raptor and Carl @ 928motorsports (both TOTALLY stand up guys !) are moving to upgrade the Ferrari RaptorV SC's with Stainless Steel tabs, my Raptor is being replaced with a new unit (as we speak) with the upgrade retainers free of charge. We will also assemble with threebond to eliminate any chance of movement as an extra measure.

R & D....., stuff gets un-concealed I guess. The Supercharged Mondial (Thor's car) 2 years out has no issues, but I'm pushing far more HP and running far more boost and 7800 redline RPM. I'll be back in "boosted" action before I finish my head re-torque and fluid change project, no worries.

Heck, I'm battle testing this kit so all of you guy's can rest assured when you buy one it'll work great and be dependable !!
(your welcome).

 

A little track day fun with SpeedtrialUSA 8-30-08

Oh Yeah, I Like it !! (sorry for the time lag, I've just been enjoying it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcJ-TkIKyhU

Quite fun. fatbillybob ? Plugzit ? What-up??? Saxton FCA/Pantera group in the fall ??

PS: Oh yeah, LouGaudio is now RVIDRCI, BTW. Internet anonymity is in play , ( I would rather be rich than famous, .....even though I am neither, curently :-().

 

Lou,

I have had some communication with Carl about purchasing his kit for my 328. What is the boost level you are running at the moment; any issues with head gaskets?

Later: Disregard, I found it in earlier posts.... thanks

 

Mike,

My Supercharged 308 has been performing flawlessly since the 3-08 (no pun intended) retainer upgrade. Runs strong and quick, stays right with 355's, (ask BigD), and is a BLAST on the track. Absolutely no overheating or temp issues, no mechanical or head gasket issues.

I still want to add some additional upgrades (water/methanol injection, larger intake tube, smaller drive pulley and tensioner rework. That should put me right at or over 400bhp, and give me a better low end torque curve. I think that means a clutch upgrade is in order $$. I'm sure I will do it, but I have just been having fun driving it ! Maybe a late winter project..

Look here http://www.youtube.com/user/omniman2 you can get a sense of how it sounds before the wind noise drowns it out. And the controlled drift exiting turns 2, 3, & 6-7 tell a little story of available throttle roll on power, way fun.

 

Thanks Lou

I plan to join you as part of the supercharged set in April/May!

 

Though my supercharged 308 accellerated all the way into redline with my stock fuel pump, it's getting old and drawing more amps than it should, so I bought Lou's new "upgraded" pump that didn't quite do the job for him before he went to the 044 pump.

Well, even though it's supposed to provide significantly more flow than the stock pump, when put into my car, my car suddenly peaked out around 6000-6500 rpm. It appears that the particular fuel pump has a problem. I've contacted Lou about him taking it back.

 

Wow, that is odd (be happy to take it back incl shipping, no worries). When I did a timed flow test on that pump it was significantly higher volume than my stocker. I'll hunt down my old notes on my pump tests. I did notice that all the pumps I tested, including the 044 uberpump, need full voltage (12v min) to operate at spec flow and pressure. There is a big difference in delivered voltage to the pump battery only vs alternator feed, also fuel pump grounding can be a weak link.

I would be interested to know what the lph flow of your "stock" pump is, perhaps it is already an upgrade ??

 

Thanks! To make it clear, I don't blame you in ANY way - if there's a problem with the pump itself, I'm sure you didn't know.

I don't do any of my own under-car work, so I guess I should have my mechanic test that before I send it back. If I am going to replace it again, I suppose I might as well go with the 044 version. Do you know what exact adapters are needed?

Here's a picture of the pump that came out - I have records back to when the car was new, and show no record of the fuel pump being changed so I presume it is original. It is a #975 Bosch and I don't know what the specs are. The overall length is the same as your new one, but the main body of the thing is quite a bit shorter... I was astounded the the car had the loss of acceleration at the top end and flattened out. I'd had no complaints with the old one except I noticed that the fuse was getting quite hot to the touch (Birdman fuse blocks, glass fuses) so I knew it was drawing more amps than it should.
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Mike,

Just had another thought. Before you pull that pump out, maybe you should check the system pressure and WUR control pressures. The new pump may have changed the CIS delivery curve due to increased system pressure.

On my car, I couldn't just switch pumps around and not adjust pressure differentials anyway. Also, when I pull the SC off to get smogged, I have to put the old stock pump and WUR back in along with the frequency valve etc.

Sorry about the issues with the pump, pulling and reinstalling a fuel pump is not an enjoyable task :-( , although I have gotten very good at it,... lots of practice ;-).

 

I think this is right; With a higher delivery pressure to the regulator, part of which becomes the control pressure, you would have to trim the control pressure to get similar flow; where's our most honored CIS tech from Alabama who knows this stuff?

 

OK, found my test notes from July '07. That pump flowed 3300cc / min (198 lph) @ 11.4 volts (bat voltage), pre CIS inlet.
Max pressure tested @ 138 psi.

Post CIS (tank return port) flow specs were :

1800cc/min @ 11.4v (bat voltage)
1900cc/min @ 12v (alternator voltage)
2500cc/min @ 14v (outside voltage source)

(CIS system pressure valve shims set to 85psi for above tests) see how voltage plays into performance !!

The most my stock pump would flow @ any voltage was 96 lph (1600cc/min) post CIS.

You might want to check it and your stocker before you send it back ??

 

This alone makes me think fuel pump ground wire issue. Replace that skinny stock Ferrari wire with a new 10 or 12 guage wire with clean crimped or soldered eye terminals. Also, do not push the RPM's if it's losing power and flattening out, your probably running way lean under boost and detonation is in play (read: stuff is wanting to melt and vaporize out through those pretty exhaust tips)

 

Except that it hasn't happened with the new fuel pump.

I have an in-car fuel/air gauge, and of course that was a concern... but it merely goes from the usual 11.5 during hard accelleration to 12.5-13.0 at "worst" at the top end now with no indication of detonation.

 

Perhaps I am not understanding, but if you are running out of power and still showing an (accurate) Air/Fuel of 13 at the time - you are not running out of gas, you are running out of air or ignition advance.

Good luck!

 

The ONLY change to the car between test runs was to swap the fuel pumps. With the old fuel pump, he in-car Fuel/Air guage (recent Bosch O2 sensor) shows 11.5 all the way to redline when under full throttle acceleration, and the car pulls hard all the way to redline.

 

Yes, that makes sense (if a little rich, but not necc. a bad thing with your boost). What I am asking I guess is what does the A/F do when you run out of power on the new pump? Do you see where I am going with his?

Just tryin' to understand and learn something here - thanks

 

Yes; my guess is that it is just starting to run out of fuel as the ratio drops... just enough so that I can feel it at around 6500rpm, where with the stock (smaller) pump, it didn't. The new pump can't seem to maintain the fuel to air ratio so the air number starts going up, but I don't fully understand how the whole thing works together - I just DRIVE it

 

Just for grins,... we have established that I will happilly refund you $$ plus shipping on the 190lph/140psi pump, thats a given.
I confirmed pump flow and pressure here, and I don't beleive the pump has changed while sitting in a box with seal caps installed.

I fear that a brand new 044 400lph pump will yeild you similar or worse issues, without adjusting the CIS upper and lower chamber fuel pressures. I will state again, I had problems running out of fuel at high RPM even with the HUGE 044 pump until I pushed the system pressure up and the control pressure differential up to match, tuning for optimum AF at WOT high rpm.

Regardless of available fuel volume, the air door in the CIS will run out of travel (read: enrichment) before redline rpm is reached if the system pressures are set too low. The CIS system uses the fuel delivery as hydraulic fluid to mechanically operate, and therefore a change in pressure and volume applied pre CIS can change the way things react. Trust me, I went to the school of hard knocks trial and error on this.

look here:http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123458&page=23

and here:http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=172258

Do you have a boost relative adjustable WUR ? What are your current system and control pressures ? I don't know the specifics of how you fellows got your SC system to fuel to redline.

My advice would be to get some fuel pressure test and AF data logging equipment on the car with any upgrade pumps and adjust as needed, or replace your stock pump with a new one of matching performance so that your current set-up works as it was tuned.

We are all still waiting for Larry Fletcher (Fletch62) to chime in here, he is THE CIS GURU...

EDIT: I just did some checking. Your Bosch 975 pump is rated at 165 lph volume @ 73 psi ??!! lower volume and far lower pressure than the unit I sent you, and far far different than stock spec 140LPH/120psi.

 

You know, I am very interested in this SC kit but there still seems to be some issues that need sorting out to call this a bolt-on kit. My previous enthusiasm is a bit tempered. I was planning to buy the kit in the spring but I'm not so sure now...

 

I have a standard Bosh WUR rebuilt by Larry within spec but towards the rich side. The fuel distributor is the euro non-lambda version. I am running 8 lbs of boost, and we did NOTHING special to get it to fuel all the way into redline. Larry is travelling, but I'm sure he'll weigh in when he gets back.

VERY interesting! I wonder if replacing the pump with another 975 is the easy way to go in my case, since my setup "liked" it as-was... lots of volume but lower pressure?!?

 

Note that mine is not the same kit that Lou has. I have the McGehee/Nick Forza version. They ALL require a bit of "tuning"

 

I suppose I shouldn't mention...nah, I better not.


(j/k)