News

Rough Idle, Loss power, Backfire

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by soucorp, Apr 18, 2012.

  1. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2008
    2,237
    Full Name:
    David Lind
    Ya gotta love this website ... tech tips, savings on parts and marital advice all in one place!
     
  2. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

    Jul 26, 2009
    5,401
    Ahwatukee, AZ
    Good info, I did a Yahoo search for the part number and "ignition" and got a couple hits.


    Marelli Series, 7 Pins, Amplifier System
    Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Lancia, Ferrari
    Marelli 064833036010, 581701010000,
    581701020000, 64833031010,
    64833031, 64833036, BKL3B, BKL3BD;
    Valeo 245537, 2595026, 2595029;
    Lucas DAB801; Transpo XM631
    Dwell controlled by module
    Transient protection on all pins
     
  3. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #103 soucorp, May 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This morning I swap my coils to see what it would do. Remember, I had intermittent firing in the banks rear seats. After the swap, the ignition problems reversed as expected, now its the engine bay facing banks. So I wanted to check if its the whole coil unit or just the module plugin at the top. So I took off the top module, noticed it was so dirty. Cleaned it with sandpaper and contact cleaner, put it all back. Tested again and it was still the same. So I swap the modules. And sure enough, the problem reversed again, now my intermittent firing is back in the rear seat facing banks. So BINGO!

    Need a new ignition Module (top connection), thanks to Dan and Jay for pointing me in the right direction. Dan for $20, I'll replace both but I'm not sure if these cheaper versions are quality or not, will do some research! :)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  4. Valenzo

    Valenzo F1 Veteran

    Dec 4, 2010
    5,013
    IL & NC
    Full Name:
    Ted
    And you did all of this today? On mothers day? You definately have a selfless wife, congrats to you on all counts. I was running around this morning getting fresh flowers and making breakfast.

    Seriously though, Must feel great to get this figured out! Way to go Mike
     
  5. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #105 soucorp, May 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    LoL, did all of that mother's day stuff this morning, I was up at 6am! Today is also my son's birthday, so we are doing a cook out on this gorgeous VA day, its 70s and sunny, too bad my Mondi is still out of service.

    Its a relief to finally solve the mystery! I swear from owning my 3.2, I indirectly became a part-time Ferrari mechanic which does not hurt when owning one! ;)

    Just ordered my ignition module on fleabay -should be back in business by mid week!
    Cheers!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. TheMac

    TheMac Formula Junior

    Sep 5, 2009
    451
    Alberta
    Full Name:
    Jon Mac
    Hey Mike, great to hear that you have tracked down the problem. Not only that, if my 3.2 acts up like that, I know where to begin (or whose brain to pick!). Can't wait to hear once you get the new modules in.
     
  7. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #107 soucorp, May 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks Jon, glad you solved your fuel injector problem as well !

    You know, if there's one good advice I will give to someone with idling problems, it will be check the plugs with a timing light. If I did that first, all of the other time consuming things would not be necessary, and I would have figured it out in a few hours instead of weeks. But since I was working on my major service items anyway, I decided to just replace those items regardless.

    btw, I love my portable timing light, best tool I have bought this year! Its a self powered inductive system and works great for my Ferrari setup where the battery is in the front and engine is in the back.

    -Mike
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  8. PT 328

    PT 328 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    May 1, 2005
    3,392
    CA
    Full Name:
    Dan
    Finally I can sleep at night knowing you have this corrected. Hopefully we don't see anymore technical difficulty threads from you for awhile.

    Congratulations on your lengthy and frustrating detective work.
     
  9. ssrealty

    ssrealty Formula Junior

    Sep 12, 2010
    325
    Austin, TX
    Full Name:
    Chris Warren
    where did you purchase your portable timing light?
     
  10. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
  11. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #111 soucorp, May 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Does anyone know what is the right water proof sealant to use to keep water out of the ignition modules over the coils?

    Will silicon seal work best? I'm pretty sure water got in there and deposited the white residue therefore killing my electrical connection to the sparks causing my misfiring.

    I will start covering engine parts from now on when washing the car, gees, live and learn !
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    19,080
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #112 Steve Magnusson, May 14, 2012
    Last edited: May 14, 2012
    The "white residue" isn't from a water deposit -- it's thermally conductive grease to transfer heat from the metal plate of the transistor module to the metal finned heat sink mount:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293882

    This is a must (and from your photos it looks like they scrimped on the amount used). Sealing the perimeter with some sort of sealant is probably not a bad idea, but all/any of the gap between the transistor module plate and the mount surface should be filled with the white thermally conductive grease (the excess will be squeezed out when you tighten the screws).
     
  13. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #113 soucorp, May 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You da man Steve, thanks again.
    I was wondering what that white thing was? Whats funny is I think the one with alot of the compound is the module that went bad, but I will have to double check that the next time I take it apart again.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    As posted byLawrence Coppari: 08-19-2010, 09:21 AM
    Originally Posted by eulk328
    It should be pointed out that even people that do know about applying heat sink compound often times put too much compound on the parts which can defeat the purpose of it. I've seen it often.

    In the photo above, the amount looks excessive. It should be the minimal amount possible while covering the entire surface. As thin a layer as possible.
    Absolutely correct post. The purpose of the compound is to fill the air gaps between the two parts. Air has a low thermal conductivity so it acts as an insulator between the portions of the two objects that do not touch. The thermal conductivity of the compound is much greater than air so when it fills the gaps, the total heat transferred is greater than what it would be with air gaps. However, if one applies too much of it which would then keeps the parts separated, the overall thermal resistance to heat transfer increases. This occurs because the thermal conductivity of the compound is not infinite.

    Without the compound heat is transferred to the air in the gap, then it conducts through the air in the gap, and finally reaches its destination. Heat is also transferred directly across the gap via radiation but this is slight at low temperatures when compared to what is conducted through the thin air gap. Filling the gap with heat transfer compound is less of a resistance than air plus radiation in parallel. But if you apply too much compound, you are adding resistance to the system.

    The compound is not designed to act as a sink. Its purpose is soley to lower the contact resistance of two objects with the object receiving the thermal energy being the sink.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    19,080
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Yes, since F supplies only the whole assembly (module + mount + coil), this assembly detail is not mentioned in the documentation.

    Not so sure that I'd be that worried about using too much here. It's true that you want as much metal-to-metal to contact as possible, and as thin a layer of the thermally conductive grease as possible (since the thermal resistance of the grease is directly proportional to its thickness), but, since this particular joint is screwed together, IMO the (high) clamping load will be sufficient to squeeze out any excess of the new thermally conductive grease (assuming that it's a fairly low viscosity type) and minimize the thickness. Sometimes heat sinks are just held on by clips, or other lesser means, and, there, the clamping load may not be sufficient to squeeze out excess so minimal application is more important. The about less than ~20% area coverage on the metal plate of one of your old modules is more of a sin -- JMO...
     
  15. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Thanks to folks like you Steve, I don't feel so lost on what I'm doing!
    I'll get some of that grease and put a light coating all over and see what happens! Like you said, the excess should squeeze out. Will also put a silicon sealant around the outside perimeter, that's how the old ones were done.
     
  16. Lino

    Lino Formula Junior

    Jul 7, 2010
    923
    Montreal Canada
    Full Name:
    Lino
    Good job Mike.

    I will get myself one of those timing lights.
     
  17. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #117 soucorp, May 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  18. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #118 soucorp, May 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I am so relieved that I can put my idling problems to bed and start enjoying the ride!
    In this fix, I also did the parking shoes, now it holds perfectly on a hill. I replaced a new clutch slave, works great, no problems at all. And, along the way, the protection relay, o2 sensor, spark plugs, and fuel filter were replaced so I don't have to worry about those items for years. My next job is timing belts and water pump, but I'm gonna enjoy my car for a while first.

    Thanks to all that helped me along the way in diagnosing this problem and I hope it will be a good reference to help others in the future!

    Cheers, just got gas and now off for some fun!

    Mike
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2008
    2,237
    Full Name:
    David Lind
    Enjoy the drives; you've bloody well earned them!
     
  20. Lino

    Lino Formula Junior

    Jul 7, 2010
    923
    Montreal Canada
    Full Name:
    Lino
    Fantastic Mike, I am happy for you.
    ENJOY THE RIDE.
    Lino
     
  21. PT 328

    PT 328 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    May 1, 2005
    3,392
    CA
    Full Name:
    Dan
    Great news. I am glad you are finally able to enjoy your car.
     
  22. Valenzo

    Valenzo F1 Veteran

    Dec 4, 2010
    5,013
    IL & NC
    Full Name:
    Ted
    Oh that is so sweet that you, read up and tackled it. Bravo to you. I'm sure you cleaned things as you went and tied things back and just enjoyed the solitude. Now you can reap the pride you so deserve.

    Enjoy, she looks fantastic.
     
  23. Dizengoff

    Dizengoff Formula Junior

    Nov 24, 2011
    625
    Chicago
    Congratulations! There's nothing quite like the feeling of solving your car's problems...plus I always think about how much $$ I save in the process.
     
  24. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #124 soucorp, May 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks everyone.

    btw, ever wondered what does an ignition power module do and whats inside:

    The Term "Ignition module" can be applied to more than one item.
    On older cars with a Distributor and coil pack, the ignition module is an electrical switch that turns the power on and off to the coil, which in tern causes the coil to generate a spark. As the case with my Mondial 3.2. These do tend to go bad from over heating and shorts.

    On more modern cars that do not have a distributor, but have fully computerised ignition systems, it usually refers to the ignition coil, which also incorporates the item mentioned above.

    In both cases it's responsible for causing a surge of high voltage electricity to be supplied to the spark plugs to cause the petrol/air mixture in the cylinders to ignite.

    And now you know!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  25. adamae82

    adamae82 Karting

    Nov 22, 2011
    175
    Toronto, Ontario
    Full Name:
    Al Peralta
    Congratulations Mike. Job well done.
     

Share This Page