News

Rough Idle, Loss power, Backfire

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by soucorp, Apr 18, 2012.

  1. rob

    rob F1 Rookie

    May 22, 2002
    3,568
    Vt
    I just checked my invoice and mine is listed at !00.00 for the part. Mine is an 86 3.2
     
  2. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2009
    1,057
    PB County, Florida
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    What you want to make sure of is the 02 you get has the right connector. Some come with a universal connector that you have to splice. I have never been a big fan of the splice for this application.

    If someone has the Bosch p/n, you can cross reference or simply search on that. I get Bosch 13957, which interchanges with Audi and VW. Should be in the $50 range if someone can confirm that p/n. I have had good luck with Amazon of all places for O2's using the Bosch p/n.

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  3. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #28 soucorp, Apr 19, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2012
    Found the mother load of O2 sensors, OE by Bosch = $49.28 Yep, have one, done, I'm just gonna replace it, so I don't have to second guess! :):):)
    Manufacturer: BOSCH
    Part Number: 13957
    Description: Oxygen Sensor
    3 Wire ; Heated ; Check/Replace Interval: 60,000 Miles;O-2 SENSOR; Per Car Qty:1
    Emiss Sns, Rly, Sol. and Switch

    http://www.oxygensensor123.com/ShopByVehicle.epc?q=1988-FERRARI&yearid=1988%40%401988&makeid=26%40%40FERRARI%40%40&modelid=7012@@MONDIAL%203.2&mode=EG
     
  4. maestro8

    maestro8 Formula 3
    BANNED

    Dec 2, 2009
    2,054
    Nor Cal
    Full Name:
    Jason
    A good splice crimp + heat shrink tubing is cheap, easy, and just as good as OEM. What's to worry about?
     
  5. godabitibi

    godabitibi F1 Veteran

    Jan 11, 2012
    5,999
    La Sarre, Quebec, Ca
    Full Name:
    Claude Laforest
    No need for splice with what Mike found. Thanks Mike I saved it in my favorite. I know I'll need one someday.
     
  6. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #31 soucorp, Apr 19, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2012
    Dan, I was able to source the part for the Protection Relay, did you use the Porsche one for your 328 and all is good, that will save me $50 bucks from the horsey stamp!

    OEM-92861512402 New frequency valve protection relay from Pelican Parts$93.75
    http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/smart/more_info.cgi?pn=OEM-92861512402&catalog_description=Genuine%20Porsche%20Part%3A%20RELAY

    Ferrari Mondial 3.2 QV (1987) Relay protection electrical system
    61766200 KE JETRONIC FUEL PUMP PROTECTION RELAY WITH FUSE, 328/412/TESTAROSSA/MONDIAL 3.2 (NOTE) $145.25
    http://www.allferrariparts.com/search.php?description=true
     
  7. gsfent

    gsfent Formula 3

    Nov 16, 2009
    1,057
    PB County, Florida
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    Yeah, it can be done if you are careful and know what you are doing, but, at $50 with OE connector, why bother with cut and splice? Just another place for potential electrical issue and these cars have enough without tempting the gods!!! :)

    Regards,
    Jerry
     
  8. PT 328

    PT 328 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    May 1, 2005
    3,374
    CA
    Full Name:
    Dan
    That is the correct part number.
     
  9. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #34 soucorp, Apr 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Today I had some garage time and decided to replace my spark plugs and clean the distributor cap/rotor in hope of resolving my rough idling problems. Replaced spark plugs (gap = .024) with new NGK Iridium Spark Plugs. Also checked and cleaned distrib cap and rotors, used sand paper to clean out the carbon build up. The distrib cap behind the seats are a real challenge. Highly recommend an engine out if possible, doing this in limited spacing just kills your time but forces you to come up with ways to get it done. I found myself going to Pep Boys a few times needing special tools. Overall, it did not look too bad and I don't think this would cause my idle problems. I accidentally stepped on an extender and cracked it, so ordered a new one from Ricambi. The others looked okay and still in good condition. Here are some of the pics of what I did.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. jgoodman

    jgoodman F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2009
    2,873
    Central PA
    Full Name:
    Jay Goodman
    And....? Did it help Mike?
     
  11. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #36 soucorp, Apr 22, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
    After I cleaned and put everything back in, fired her up and oh boy, worst idling, back fire, stalled. Waited a few secs, started up again, now it wont start, Waited a few minutes and started her again, this time it started but still rough, it wanted to stall but did not. Finally I let it run for 5-10 min and every smooth out. I was so relieved, thought it was a tow to the shop at this point. I still think the O2 sensor maybe going bad, I have a new one coming this week and I will also change the Protection Relay. If it still acts up, I'll reach out to the experts! Tomorrow after work, I will try to tackle replacing my clutch slave cylinder that's been leaking. Thanks.
     
  12. PT 328

    PT 328 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    May 1, 2005
    3,374
    CA
    Full Name:
    Dan
    If possible, do me a favor and curb my curiosity by changing the protection relay first and see if that resolves it before putting in the new O2 sensor.
     
  13. trendsetterx

    trendsetterx Karting

    May 15, 2007
    69
    Deep south Texas
    Full Name:
    Raul Marquez
    #38 trendsetterx, Apr 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  14. mulo rampante

    mulo rampante Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 31, 2011
    997
    Terra Incognita
    Full Name:
    Charles
    Mike: I somehow missed your photos.

    From what I can tell the old plugs look ok, don't see any oil fouling or signs of high heat. Do they all look pretty much the same? Doesn't look like there are any carbon tracks in the distributor caps, though the erosion of the rotor and electrodes in the caps suggests those parts have a few miles on them.

    I think swapping the relay is a good idea as a test.

    Can't say about the 02 sensor, my QV doesn't use one as a feedback mechanism for regulating A/F ratio, but I would think that if yours failed the system would switch to running open loop and use some preset mixture value. OTOH, if the o2 sensor is giving wrong readings this could upset the A/F ratio... sorry, just conjecture here as I don't own a car with a lambda sensor.

    I'm wondering if it's maybe related to fuel delivery as well. Somewhere around here I have the official Bosch factory training manuals for K-jet... haven't seen them in awhile, but I'll look tomorrow.

    It might be helpful if you can isolate the problem to a cold start phenomenon versus something that also occurs in a fully warmed-up situation. Does this also occur with warm starts?
     
  15. PT 328

    PT 328 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    May 1, 2005
    3,374
    CA
    Full Name:
    Dan
    I didn't take my old one apart but mine rattled like a baby toy when I shook it. New one, of course, did not.
     
  16. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #41 soucorp, Apr 22, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
    Hi, its not just a cold start problem from what I have noticed, it idles rough at fresh start in the morning and I also noticed it acting up in an afternoon drive when it was warmed for a while. That's why I think its the O2 sensor but its trial and error for now. It could be my K-Jet going bad if not the relay. Thanks.
     
  17. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    BTW, where is the Protection Relay located on a 3.2 Mondial, is it in the back trunk area ? I will order one tomorrow.
    Thanks.
     
  18. PT 328

    PT 328 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    May 1, 2005
    3,374
    CA
    Full Name:
    Dan
    I believe it is in the passenger rear for the mondial 3.2. I would check in the boot under the carpet or an attachment to the chassis in the same area.
     
  19. trendsetterx

    trendsetterx Karting

    May 15, 2007
    69
    Deep south Texas
    Full Name:
    Raul Marquez
    Yes, the protection relay is in the trunk, passenger side. You must remove the carpet first.

    When the car is cold, the computer does not take any lambda o2 readings till after the car is warm. Did you make sure no air was getting in from a hose. In your pics, those hoses look as old as the car, and the T connectors may be rusted. I had to replace my T connectors because they were rusted and unmetered air was leaking in.
     
  20. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #45 soucorp, Apr 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks PT328 and trendsetterx. I forgot I washed the plug wires with soap and water but dried them, so maybe had some water inside a bit at first start which could explain the stall and really rough running. After a while, it all smoothed out, but I still think its a relay or o2 sensor that is intermittent and going bad. Will order a relay today and try that next as PT 328 suggested.

    (trendsetterx) - which hoses were you referring to that looked old, I assume its these and will look at them again for leaks #8 T-union for air injection. Did notice 3 small pin holes at the mid section curve side of the #29 'Pipe from support throttle valve body' but it was not bad to the point of needing a replacement.

    Thanks again for the great advice.
    -Mike
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. jgoodman

    jgoodman F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2009
    2,873
    Central PA
    Full Name:
    Jay Goodman
    #46 jgoodman, Apr 23, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2012
    Hey Mike, thinking simple and common problems first, any chance it's a bad ignition wire/extender? It also seems as though you didn't replace the distributor rotor or cap when you were in there.
     
  22. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Hi Jay,
    I have one cracked extender that I accidentally stepped on while it was on the floor, but its still functional and just the shell housing small edge piece broke off, new one ordered already. The others look okay from what I can tell with no signs of wear or burn marks. I did not replace the distrib cap or rotor, they looked fine to me after cleaning them and still have many miles left. I'm thinking its pointing to the relay prob, don't know, but want to start the car after work today and see if its any better. This time I'll try to get video for evidence.

    thanks.
     
  23. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    18,974
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    The 100% sure way to know if you have a problem in the protection relay system is check if the frequency valve is "buzzing", or not, during engine operation:

    Symptoms for protection relay system problem (with everything else OK):
    cold-running = bad (weak)
    warm-running = bad (weak)
    frequency valve not buzzing during engine operation

    Symptoms for O2 sensor system problem (with everything else OK):
    cold-running = good
    warm-running = bad
    frequency valve is buzzing during engine operation

    Good Hunting!
     
  24. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #49 soucorp, Apr 23, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2012
    Thanks Steve, this is very helpful, sounds more and more like a relay prob, but I thought I heard a buzzing sound, here is a video I took after it smoothed out after 10 min and it sounded okay.
    I have a protection relay on order from Pelican parts, a few days for delivery.
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVsYwGEP7To[/ame]
    -Mike


    I wish I took a video of the start, it was horrible and stalled a few times with misfiring and all. Will try to start it up again today after work.
     
  25. soucorp

    soucorp F1 Rookie

    Sep 20, 2011
    4,805
    Old Dominion
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #50 soucorp, Apr 23, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2012
    Got home today, raining outside so didn't take her out for a drive. I started her up, she started on the second try but much better today, no back fire, no rough idling, however it did dip 2x but never stalled then smooth out. My starting problems yesterday could be related to wash water of the ignition cables/distrib cap which has now fully dried up. I had a video of the start but the playback has no sound, so this is the second video like 5 mins after I started the car. I am so relieved she is back to pre-maintenance performance, but will be changing the buzz Relay and O2 sensor, she should be as good as new.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYFEAR-WSso[/ame]
     

Share This Page