Roof failure ... again

Vic, is the whole car wrapped or only the roof?.. Reason being if the whole car is wrapped and the bumpers covered where the parking sensors are , if not applied well, the sensors will throw all sorts of errors on the top mechanism thinking there's an obstacle.. Just a taught..hope you can sort this out

 

Thanks for all the information. In response to some of the points raised, I think the Power warranty is only available on 2012 or later cars, but I will check on this. If I can buy a new warranty of any kind, it will be worth it. But not sure it will cover the roof mechanism in any case. I have a video of the roof cycling and the dash warning lights so I think even a remote technician will know as much as I do, at least visually as to what is going on, but I agree, a highly specific description is what is needed. I am a surgeon, so I know that a complete "history" is of paramount importance. One of you mentioned "resetting" the car. What does that mean? Is that something that a non-Ferrari shop can perform, if they specialize in Ferraris? Someone also mentioned corrupted software. I am sure that only Ferrari dealers can reinstall software.
Anyway, it is comforting to know that these roof failures are not as common as I feared, and hopefully a thorough and systematic algorithm approach will be able to diagnose the true reason for the failure.
Thanks to all who weighed in on this!!!

 

If it does it with the roof closed going over bumps, my guess would be a sensor or a poor electrical connection somewhere... But, there could be multiple issues... and a bit weird that clearing error codes "resolves" it, at least temporarily... A bit worrisome that Ferrari cannot figure it out...

 

Vic, mine has never had any roof issues at all but three times at least going over bumps came the roof failure sign.The first time I had a california suite case in the boot and I realized that it moved and displaced slightly out of position the sliding roof holder, I pulled it back and everything was fine. The second and the third times it happened the boot was empty so I stopped the car, open the boot and just pulled back again the sliding roof holder and everything was ok. The only explanation I find for this occurrences is a bad contact of the sliding roof holder and the system understands that it is not completely closed and therefore shows the roof failure sign.

 

Vic, it's good to see you persevere with this ridiculous problem but it's also worrisome to see the dealer being so helpless to either fix it or at least engage the factory to help you. Why should a customer have to write to the factory to escalate such issues? Many customers would have given up on the car and Ferrari for good long before this point!

A cynical person might quip "there is no shortage of new customers", but these problems happen frequently enough that they are turning off a lot of potential Fcar owners who don't want to buy into an expensive headache. Ferrari needs to grab these problems by the horns and fix them.

I agree with you. If the dealer (and the factory) have already confirmed the correct software is properly installed and running, they should replace the controller next. The error codes are useful because they can point to a common source. It's like pinpointing a suspect on a "CSI episode" - each error code is like a victim, so the question is "what is the common factor between the error codes?" - which component or system can generate or erroneously report all these error codes? One of them is the software, the other is the controller.

Cables, microswitches and sensors can also generate the errors but if the errors are dissimilar enough then several cables, sensors and switches have all got to act up around the same time to generate separate codes. If this is the case with the codes then the controller is more likely the culprit.

I had a problem with the stop/start (HELE) function in my car. It would randomly stop working for no apparent reason... for over 2 driving seasons (years). After correcting 2 bad batteries, the local mechanic finally discovered a faulty electrical connection to an ignition module that sits inside the steering wheel.

I think you are making progress and I really hope the factory will help you sort this out because it would be shameful and simply "bad business" to let you down, after all your efforts and enthusiasm for the car and the brand.

Good luck and keep us posted! 👍✊

 

The error is showing a physical trigger with bumps. So it is either a loose connector in the harness, north of where all of the sensors or valves reporting errors or one of the sensors is loose and reporting a false value where the code is trying to figure out why and mis-reports. Most likely.

If it is something loose, you should be able to stimulate it by parking and tapping around the roof mechanism. Try it with the roof down first. The we are the bits in the trunk. If you see cables, a light tug to see if something responds. Doesn't need much stimulation....

SV

 

Vic, I always try to resolve remedies through the proper chanels hoping to have a fair outcome. It appears you've passed that point and beyond with your time and effort by repeat attempts to resolve this issue in the normal protocol. I certainly respect the dealership and mechanics earnest attempt to get to the root and cause of this ongoing problem, but with no resolution other than your 70 mile drive back and forth. With that being said that is where I draw the line and escalate it to my consul. It may make a difference, and in case it doesn't you have it on file for future reference . It's obvious from all the posts your receiving on this tread that people are concern about you having a favorable outcome, as this could be any one of us.. My best wishes to you..

 

My 2011 cali is being delivered to a mechanic in New Orleans tomorrow. Jim Lindsay with Lindsay Automotive. He has a great reputation, all Fcar owners use him when warranty expires. Ben in business for 30 years.
I am terrified that this roof failure problem will be unsolvable, and worst, then I will have to sell it for peanuts if I can get it "temporarily" fixed long enough to dump it.

As a first time buyer, and a former owner of a 2009 SL63 AMG, I am appalled that Ferrari has not corrected this roof failure problem. The SL had no roof problems, and the tops are made by the same company. I got a call from Webasto today, and I am sending them a video of the problem.
i wish I had never bought this car. Now, on my way to the electric chair...

 

I was intrigued by this error that Vic's car collected:

B1351 electrical fault in encoder PE20​

In this context, encoders are devices that convert signals from sensors into data for a controller to interpret and respond to. Encoders can encode rotational or linear position signals. They normally interact with a controller in a manner shown in the following hypothetical industrial controller design (ripped off from an encoder supplier website). Similar designs are used in automotive control systems. The brown area of the diagram is more relevant to our discussions.

Given the nature of the error codes:

B1351 electrical fault in encoder PE20 an encoder fault
B1000 implausible roof position implausible data from an encoder
B1002 hydraulic valve temp too hot possibly spurious data from a temperature sensor​

It would seem to me these errors point to input from different encoder(s) and sensor(s) feeding into the processor. So the processor (part of the controller) is the most likely culprit. However, the encoders may also be located in the controller module. BTW, "BLDC" in the diagram just refers to a BrushLess DC (motor). PLC = programmable logic controller (i.e. a computerized automation device).

In this example, the DRIVER (a software subprogram or routine) is reading the encoder data from sensors on a component being articulated and is also issuing commands to the BLDC motor to articulate the component.

The PROCESSOR reads the data from the DRIVER, interprets the data within the context of the entire subsystem which may include many components/devices by using high level logic. It is the PROCESSOR which then issues instructions to the DRIVER(s). Each component or device in a subsystem managed by a CONTROLLER would have a specific DRIVER which understands the signals coming from sensors and encoders that detect various states or positions of that component/device.
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The problem with blaming just a (roof position) encoder is that it doesn't explain the "B1002 hydraulic valve temp too hot" error code (from a temperature sensor) unless the temperature sensor or hydraulic system also hiccuped around the same time. Somewhat unlikely.

The control unit is at location #3, costs not much more than the roof harness (#6). According to this diagram provided by Ricambi America there appears to be only one roof harness. The other harness at location #8 is for the backlight.

Temperature extremes/cycling can encourage apparently random events... like the ignition module with my HELE problem. Cold solder joints.
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My sincere compliments to the well thought out and considered contributions 4th Gear has made to this thread.

Somehow, I believe that there are unresolved design flaws with the folding Cali Top. It is a relatively large structure and perhaps a combination of mismatched hydraulics sensors and software are at work creating persistent problems.

Interesting to note is the relatively trouble free folding top of 458/488 spiders. The system is also based on hydraulics, but the folding panels are much smaller and lighter.

I wonder if replacing the original panels including the trunk lid with Carbon fiber would improve things????

 

Thanks MailbuGuy, I'm sincerely flattered. It's also very nice of you to stay in touch with the Cali community on this board.

Our cars are indeed very complex beasts. All the same, the other side of the coin is that some of the complexity also makes them interesting to drive. I was just telling someone today why I love my car... it seems to behave a bit differently every time I drive it. There's always notice some new nifty nuance to my car, making me look forward to my next drive.

It would be neat to have CF roof panels and trunk lid. It may make the roof action more accurate and be less stressful on the mechanism. Of course, we'll also need a CF bonnet to maintain the rear weight bias.

 

The mechanic in New Orleans worked with the Algar technician, and worked on it for 2 days. Algar originally "added" shims to the roof mechanisms (somewhere) and that "worked for the few times they tested the roof, but soon afterward (one day, and a few hundred miles later in a truck) failed and caused a "different" problem to occur when it arrived in New Orleans. I think they just compounded the problem with the shims, and now they are saying that the car was working properly when they finished with the "repair".

Working with the NOLA mechanic, he got the top to work, but you now have to "nudge" the top to move in the correct direction to avoid the roof failure.

SERIOUSLY???

And Algar now says that that should work...
But to get it to work without the nudge, would require tighter adjustment, and they said that the rear glass could break if it is tighten any more.???

What kind of bozos are working on these cars?
Do they not realize that if they are over tightening ANYTHING against specifications that that is going to cause a new and additional failure somewhere else.

I'm disgusted with this whole affair. I wish I had never bought this car. Now I'm going to have to sell it for pennies on the dollar to some dealer in california who says he can fix it and resell it.

Ferrari should have solved this mess, recalled ALL Calis, retrofitted or fixed them.

Shame on you Ferrari for being such a lousy company that just perpetuates an existing problem in the name of profits.

Thoroughly disgusted!!!

 

David, I'm so sorry to learn of your continued woes with your car.

IMO, th dealery should not have added any "shims" to the mechanism. These Webasto roofs should perform as specified from the factory (Ferrari and Webasto). If the dealer cannot return the roof to those specifications, unless told otherwise by the factory (Ferrari) they cannot mess with them to make them work because these are very complicated mechanisms and they cannot vouch for any negative consequences if they stray from factory specifications. The shims may also fail and/or interfere with other parts of the mechanism or car. Since this is a heavy moving device it can potentially cause injury.

I don't think dealers should be altering the factory specifications of these cars unless the factory authorizes the procedures. So if they did not obtain factory authorization then you may have recourse to complain to FNA (Ferrari North America). If you do not hear from them or if your complaint is not directly addressed you should complain to the factory in Italy.

Make sure you record all the sordid details of your experiences with this car and the dealer(s) involved. Good luck!

 

Are there any elastic straps on the Cali roof mechanism to keep the linkages moving and on course like on the 355 Spider soft top? If so, maybe they have already stretched out of spec. Just a thought.

 

Feel your pain.

But don't take it too personally.

Ferrari has a long track history of turning a blind eye.

Poorly designed exhaust manifolds which keep cracking, premature engine mount failures,
Premature $9,000 sensor failures, and as Al Pacino says, "And I'm just getting started here"

Perhaps the best advice is not to buy a brand new model such as the Cali, until the second generation, i.e. The Cali T

 

That's true, especially about not buying the first/second year cars of newly-designed model. And if you must be the first one in your neighbourhood for one, at least lease it instead of buying it and be prepared to be the first to report and help sort out a teething problem.

However, in the case of the Cali, the roof of the CaliT was actually one part of the car that was brought over from the original Cali, COMPLETELY unchanged.

As for the exhaust manifolds and engine mount failures, I believe you are referring to the F430 and the 360, respectively. Not sure of the sensor failures but I do recall your having variator failures on the timing shafts of your high-mileage Cali at 65,000 miles. For that matter, early 458s used to routinely catch fire until the factory identified the cause (the rear wheel well lining). There were other brief teething issues.

I think the question of reliability with Fcars is that the cars are complex by nature and are all liable to have the odd issue. Fcars were never noted for being reliable and this drawback was even acknowledged and accepted by Luca di Montezemolo, the previous head of Ferrari and he felt rightly, that the passion of Fcars were preferable to building boring cars.

I think people who own Fcars need to understand and accept the nature of trade-offs when operating at the bleeding edge. IMO, there are never free lunches. You just have to be realistic and choose with eyes open.