Roof failure ... again

FWIW, here are my observations about how able my car's charging circuitry is able to recharge the battery while I am driving. My car has the HELE (stop/start) function and uses an AGM battery. Its charging circuitry is designed to recharge its battery much faster than with regular Calis. AGM batteries are also designed to recharge much faster than regular lead acid starter batteries.

When I disable HELE, the car does recharge and maintain the AGM at 100% (12.7V) but when I turn HELE on, it doesn't. The battery drops to 12.5V (about 80%) upon return to my garage from 60-120 minute trips to the countryside. It takes about 2-3 hours to return to 100% on my 7 amp CTEK 7002 charger.

 

Vic, I'm not completely sure but I presume that the Cali adaptor cable on the picture which you can buy can be plugged in any of the new generation CTEK tenders.................
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Sensor...or interconnect...

SV

 

Vic, the fact that you get a sequence of roof error messages should actually help the diagnostic process. The more error messages the better.

I used to design and write software for controlling factory robots at one point in my earlier career. Diagnostic error messages are triggered by specific conditions flagged by sensors. These conditions are clearly described in the detailed software designs for the systems. Having a sequence of errors should narrow down what condition(s) would conceivably trigger them. The dealer normally engages troubleshooters at the factory in Italy to directly work on such problem because the process requires access to the design of the software and that usually requires help from the programmers who wrote the original software code or at least the people who are now maintaining the original code.

Aside from actual faults in the sensors, battery, control circuitry or actual roof hardware, one other possibility is corrupted software. This can happen if the software was not correctly or completely loaded during a software update or software installation when your car was serviced by your dealer during an earlier visit. This apparently happens quite often. Corrupted software can behave unpredictably. The dealer should first reload the software and verify it is properly loaded before assuming the problem is caused elsewhere. This is the same troubleshooting logic paradigm that I followed with regard to first making sure the battery is good before proceeding further.

Regarding the battery, yours apparently was bad or marginal and now you have a new one... gratis. Hopefully, they also charged it up fully before they installed it. It would also be a good idea to test the new battery again at this point. If it tests good (new) now it would then eliminate the battery's involvement in the current problem.

 

Not sure how old the car is and if you bought it new, but if you did I would think this would fall under the lemon law...

 

Vic, I can imagine the feeling of uncertainty you have every time you press this roof switch so you have all my Cali's owner solidarity but, at the end of the day, I know this is no solution whatsoever for your problem. One thing is certain Cali's roof failures are not uncommon and happen in cars of very different ages which means that changing to another car is no total guarantee that it won't happen again. Because the USA is the biggest single Cali market in the world, with many thousands of units sold, there are certainly very experienced Ferrari technicians which have come across this exact same type of problem before several times, and can recommend a proved line of action leading to a definitive solution. Why don't your dealer calls some colleagues big Ferrari dealers in California and ask them if they can diagnose the problem with all the information you already have available?

Good luck and regards

 

Vic, it would seem to me that aside from repeat visits to the dealer hassles, you are really in a difficult position having to decide what I would summarize as the following:

a) should you keep the car?
b) should you trade in your car and take a loss?
c) should you buy extended warranty?
d) can the dealer fix the problem?
e) will the car have the problem again if you keep it?

I don't like to be cynical but it looks to me the dealer stands to gain from this situation regardless of what you do. OTOH, neither you (nor even Ferrari potentially) have anything to gain from your misfortune. Only your dealer is assured to gain from it. It also appears to me this problem only started recently. So your car worked fine until recently. Why is this problem occurring now?

I do not believe these problems are difficult to fix. I have a computer industry background and software problems are routinely traced and fixed. I acknowledge Ferrari dealerships are late players to the computer world but they do have direct factory tech support backup. They can enlist help from the programmers at Ferrari Spa. So it may be that your dealer doesn't want to fix your problem before your warranty runs out. It's easy enough for them to just drag their feet. Like I said, I don't like to be cynical but that's not how the world operates.

You may want to see if another dealer can fix your car for you. I know it will cause additional hassles but if your car is still under warranty the dealer can flatbed your car to their location and return it the same way, at no charge... so long as it is a warranty issue. You should discuss this thoroughly with the other dealer before you authorize the work. This is what I would do. Surely, there are other dealers near your Rhode Island location.

BTW, my dealer tells me they access a "community" database managed by the factory which contains technical notes and repair tips gathered throughout the entire Ferrari dealer network worldwide. My car went through a similarly frustrating process while it was under warranty.

 

Sorry I may have missed your original post on this problem. However, it is highly unlikely the problem did not present itself during the first 5000 miles. These problems tend to become evident within the first 2000 miles. Mine did.

I think your dealer should explain WHY and HOW a given fix addresses the actual problems or error codes. Troubleshooting should always involve a plan or roadmap that lays out a series of possible actions as well as tell you what the dealer will do for you if nothing works. Otherwise the process can become random and potentially endless for you. If you were paying for the "fixes" you would want to know why they want you to spend money on a given fix. You can see how quickly your patience would run out if your car were outside of warranty right now.

Even if your dealer may not stand to gain from your misfortune, they are not helping you by wasting your precious remaining warranty. I think dealers sometimes just don't want to spend too much time on a warranty repair since the factory is the one who is on the nut for warranty costs. OTOH you can definitely ask the factory to help when they send you their customer satisfaction survey. In my case, the factory was very helpful.

IMO your roof problem is definitely fixable, as was mine eventually. The dealer simply has to try hard enough. However, Fcars are definitely not practical to own as an only-car so I hope you have a reliable daily car to fall back on. I've spent some time in a Carrera 4 Cabriolet as well and I generally concur with your assessment of them.

 

Vic, I feel for you despite the fact you and I are total stranger. I purchased a Bentley Arnage T from a local dealer in Newport Beach and within the first few thousand miles my engine light came on. After half a dozen trip to the dealer , they narrowed it to a vacuum leak that couldn't be located or fixed , Bentley finally sent out their supervisors from New Jersey and they were able to remedy the problem and the engine light did go off , but for only two weeks!!!!!
I was disgusted with the car and parked it in the garage until I sold it to a dealer who didn't care about the issue and used it for weddings and photo ops.

 

Vic, have you considered to get FNA involved. It is not acceptable that your car is riddled with roof failures and the dealer is unable to correct the problem. If the dealer is unable to correct it, FNA should and may be willing send someone more capable. Though, good to read that you still enjoy the car.

 

I feel so bad for you. Reading this makes me sick. If this is a hassle now with Ferrari footing the bill, wait until it is on your dime. That will be terrible.

Have all of these roof repairs and service visits hit Carfax yet? If not, maybe it is time to just cut your losses and dump it while warranty is still in effect. Best, Matt.

 

My vote is to get rid of this car since it has a defect which cannot be fixed by a qualified dealer.

It will continue to annoy you and waste a lot of time.

 

Reading this thread scares me to death.
I just purchased my first Ferrari, 2011 cali. Took delivery on it Wednesday. As soon as it exited the truck, I got a roof failure. Happens every time. I had a PPI at Algar Ferrari, and the only problem they found was that there was a noise coming from the top during road test. They said the rear window needed "adjustment", performed the work for $500, and said they cycled the top several times, and the top functioned flawlessly. The car has been at Algar for a previous "roof issue" that was explained to me by the seller as a simple battery replacement and was "solved".
Now, the seller won't rescind the sale, he says it's Algars problem, or my problem. I won't reveal the sellers name yet, reserve that info if I need to resort to legal action.
I am sooooo dissappointed because I have been looking forward to have this car for so long, and now I read that these cars are apparently plagued with roof failure issues. I had a SL63 AMG, and the top never failed. German engineering vs Italian? Someone said Ferrari doesn't design these tops. Who does? And who builds them if not Ferrari.
Devastated, no local Ferrari dealer to bring it to in New Orleans. I feel like I am willingly walking to the electric chair...

 

Sorry to hear this terrible story. I'm sure the sale was "as is" and you will have no recourse with the seller. I would never buy a Cali with no warranty from a non-Ferrari dealer. These cars are too complicated with the top and DCT.

My friend had issues with his Cali and it had warranty and he was unhappy.

I personally would not own a Ferrari if you live more than 60 miles from a dealer. Too many things to go wrong small and large and being far just compounds things.

I believe the top is made by Webasto. I heard same company that makes 3 series and SL tops. My brother had a 3 series folding hardtop and it was constantly at dealer for many different warranty problems but it was a lease.

I hope you can rescind the sale or something. Good luck. Keep us posted.

 

David, since you say your car was trucked in and previously had a PPI and repair at Algar Ferrari, I assume it came from Philadelphia.

It's usually better to have an out-of-town dealer or inspection mechanic do the PPI, just like when you do home inspections before purchasing a house. In the real estate business, many home inspectors have relationships with real estate sales people and those relationships are much stronger than their loyalty to a buyer, even if the buyers are paying for the home inspection bill. The same can be true of people who perform PPIs. It's better if you can arrange someone from out-of-town to perform PPIs as they potentially have nothing to gain from the car sale. Avoid conflict of interest.

Cali roof problems are often very annoying to resolve. These roofs are made by Webasto of Germany and similar models are used in many other car brands, including MB on their SLK/SL models. Every brand seems to have problems with these roofs. However, I understand the MB SL models use 2 separate batteries and that may be a clue. I can't say if the frequency of problems are unusually high but you only have to Google with the right search phrases and you will find people discussing Webasto roof problems. This means that many mechanics have and are having to deal with Webasto roof problems, so that's the good news.

I cannot help you with the legal aspects of your problem but the closest dealers to New Orleans are 2 Ferrari dealers in Houston. It's a day's drive but it's what you signed up for when you own a late model Fcar in NO.

It is possible that your battery may be causing the problem. You did not provide the exact description of what you meant by "roof failure" or "roof issues". These general descriptions are pretty useless for diagnosis. You have to describe exactly what happened. Using general phrases will just frustrate the troubleshooters and cost you money so you must prepare a detailed description of what happened. Don't waste the time of the troubleshooters and they will be better able to help you. You will likely be paying them by the hour.

I will tell EVERYONE on this forum that letting the newer Fcars sit without driving or connecting them to proper battery chargers is going to drain and damage some of the cars' batteries - guaranteed. Which car gets the problem depends on how discharged the batteries were before they got parked and how many gadgets were running in these cars while they sat idle. Most dealers and owners do not connect proper battery chargers to their idle cars... as well as your car when it is in their shop. When you buy these cars the dealers give them a last minute boost from their high speed chargers (if they have one) but it's often just cosmetic treatment. If the battery had been damaged by lack of charge, it will fail soon after.

MY ADVICE: check the manufacture of the battery in your car. If it's made by a company that has dealer locations in your area, e.g. InterState Batteries, call them and take your car to their location. They will happily test your battery for free and may even provide a free replacement if it is still under warranty so long as you remove the bad battery in your car to affect the swap. InterState cannot work on your car to replace your battery under warranty. You have to get it out first and you might need someone to help you do that. The date code on the battery is needed to determine whether it is still under warranty and it's almost impossible to see given how batteries are mounted in the California. But look at it this way, if your battery is bad, it WILL compromise how your roof and the rest of the electrical circuits work. You MUST replace damaged batteries.

As for your purchase process, the smarter thing to do would have been to have an out-of-town dealer perform a WARRANTY INSPECTION, and not a PPI. They cost about the same. If the car passes the warranty inspection, you or the seller can buy an extended or power warranty on the car. You can even work out some sort of condition of purchase with the seller before you do the inspection. OTOH, a satisfactory PPI does not mean a dealer will allow you to buy extended warranty, especially if the PPI was not done by a dealer.

FYI, a Ferrari warranty inspection which is a thorough PPI-like inspection that is required before an owner can obtain an extension of the factory warranty for cars that are about to run out of the original factory warranty or obtain what is called a POWER WARRANTY, a slightly less comprehensive warranty for older cars that have expired their original factory warranties.

Doing a purchase in this manner gets you a more useful inspection than a PPI because you can buy or have the seller pay for at least a 1-year warranty on the car. Just make sure you understand what is covered by such warranties.

You should always insist on at least a 1-year warranty either provided by the seller or like what I just described, in a pre-sale warranty inspection that you can then use to buy your own warranty extension with.

 

In case it is of interest...

The Ferrari warranty extension program is called NEW POWER warranty. It can be used to extend warranty coverage "up to a vehicle age of 12 years".

The car must be inspected by the dealer, mileage must not exceed 56,000 miles/90,000 kms, other conditions include no serious accidents, not "tampered with", not used commercially (e.g. rental) or raced.

 

Getting the car to Miller may be a great idea as they deal with a lot of Ferrari's especially California's as there are so many that live within just 20 miles of the dealer. I'm sure there are a lot less cars up in New England area for the techs to get as much skill on these tops.

 

Vic, I've been following your thread with interest, and when you mentioned in your last post that you'd wrapped the car, it suddenly reminded me of a friend who had a "roof failure" issue immediately after he had his roof wrapped.
The wrap is applied when the roof is in mid cycle position and the mechanism is fairly vulnerable at that point. In my friend's case, uneven pressure on the top roof panel during the wrapping process caused a slight malalignment which was only visible when the roof was mid-cycle. When the roof was completely up or down it kind of forced itself into alignment, but this must have caused asymmetrical tension or compression in the mechanism. This may also explain why the error message comes through sometimes a few seconds after the cycle is completed. Sensors picking up uneven tension?

May also explain why there's no prior history of roof issues before you bought the car.

I really hope and believe this can be resolved.