RM London Sep 7 | Page 3 | FerrariChat

RM London Sep 7

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by 85886, Sep 7, 2015.

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  1. Bobj

    Bobj Formula Junior

    Aug 12, 2013
    486
    UK
    Results posted now. Surprised at the price for the 360 engine... A whole car is not much more than this...
     
  2. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2004
    3,677
    Among the automobile auction houses, only Bonhams posts results in real time.
     
  3. SGTS

    SGTS Rookie

    Sep 27, 2013
    49
    Results here: Results - London 2015 | Classic Car Auctions | RM Sotheby's
    All (hammer) prices GBP:

    1991 Ferrari Testarossa
    £160,000 - £190,000
    135 sold

    1966 Ferrari 330 GT 2+2 Series II by Pininfarina
    £175,000 - £225,000
    140 sold

    1969 Ferrari 365 GTC by Pininfarina
    £550,000 - £700,000
    420 Passed

    1968 Ferrari Dino 206 GT
    £325,000 - £375,000
    310 sold

    1974 Ferrari 365 GT4 BB by Scaglietti
    £300,000 - £375,000
    300 sold

    2005 Ferrari 612 Scaglietti (manual)
    £80,000 - £100,000
    105 sold

    1979 Ferrari 308 GT4
    £35,000 - £45,000
    45 sold

    1973 Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Daytona Spider by Scaglietti
    £2,000,000 - £2,400,000
    1.7 Passed

    1982 Ferrari 512 BBi
    £190,000 - £240,000
    190 sold


    1964 Ferrari 330 GT 2+2 Series I by Pininfarina
    £140,000 - £160,000
    125 sold

    2001 Ferrari 575 Maranello 'Pre-Production'
    £90,000 - £120,000
    65 sold

    1964 Ferrari 250 GT/L Berlinetta 'Lusso' by Scaglietti
    £1,200,000 - £1,600,000
    1.1 sold

    1968 Ferrari 365 GT 2+2 by Pininfarina
    £160,000 - £180,000
    130 passed

    1992 Ferrari F40
    £780,000 - £900,000
    755 sold

    1958 Ferrari 250 GT Berlinetta Competizione 'Tour de France' by Scaglietti
    £4,500,000 - £5,500,000
    4.25 sold

    1985 Ferrari Testarossa
    £120,000 - £160,000
    97.5 sold
     
  4. amenasce

    amenasce Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    33,014
    Full Name:
    Joe Mansion
    Still a long way to drop...

    It's funny how we get used to a new normal. I see the BBi at 190k and for a brief moment my brain was "Wow, that's a good price"..Still a $300k car that was worth half that a year ago.
     
  5. gbutler

    gbutler Formula Junior

    Jun 9, 2005
    542
    Charlotte, NC
    Full Name:
    Glenn Butler
    327.7k USD to be exact - 12% b.p. and 1.54 USD/GBP
     
  6. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie

    Oct 26, 2006
    3,005
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Geno
    Don't forget the Vat that can be as high as 20% if registered in EU.

     
  7. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie

    Jan 19, 2014
    3,629
    NOLA
    Full Name:
    Chris
    Actually they were very close to $300k if not already there by this time last year.
     
  8. Super_Dave

    Super_Dave Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2014
    710
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    The decline is starting, it seems, there is a very long way down to go from here.
     
  9. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie

    Jan 19, 2014
    3,629
    NOLA
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    Chris
    Actually these auction results seem quite strong and in line with current values, so if the decline is starting, these results don't indicate that.
     
  10. msn

    msn Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2011
    412
    #60 msn, Sep 9, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
    I went to the auction on Monday and the cars on offer were not first grade investor quality like a lot of the cars people talk about on here.. the cars are at the low end for a reason. I know this is not a Ferrari but the Carrera GT that sold at the low end was apparently the only one in white, the car came form the middle east, so maybe this is it seen here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwge_3u_xW8
    You cannot blame the guy having great fun in his car, but would you want to buy this car..
    It's like everything in life you get what you pay for.. the best is always expensive because its the best.....
     
  11. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,062
    London. UK.
    Full Name:
    Paul Baber
    If I understood what you are saying I would respond. Can you clarify please.....
     
  12. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,826
    I don`t think that this auction is much recognized by collectors.

    All major auctions are combined with a big event like Pebble or much close or over a weekend.

    Don`t think that a Monday is a good time for such a sale.

    Also this particular auction did never shine with bride results IMO.

    As of the 3 Maseratis - only good car was the Mistral-Spyder which made good money for its 3.7-liter specs! The other cars were not so gut examples....


    Ciao!
    Walter


    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  13. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2003
    2,748
    Surrey, England
    Full Name:
    Matthew
    The auction is supposed to tie in with the Concours of Elegance, but as this year's Concours was held 300 miles away in Scotland the link is rather tenuous. As the Concours rotates around the Royal Palaces I would expect it to be back in the London area next year?
     
  14. 275gtb6c

    275gtb6c Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 30, 2006
    1,929
    europe
    Full Name:
    oscar
    hi,

    rather un-community wise I bought a non Ferrari at the London RM Auction. Most cars were soso or to say the least not as we are used to see. The F40 was nice as the Maserati cabrio. The Fiat 500 (that would perfectly fit my family) was nice but sold ridiculously.
    But London is so nice and as I believe the 90's will be the next 60's I bought the car of my childhood....People saying the bubble will burst I don't agree but at this auctions most cars were just not as they should and in that case the market is inexcusable.

    ciao
    Oscar
     
  15. Super_Dave

    Super_Dave Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2014
    710
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    Can you please explain the figures above? I admit ignorance but thought the ranges were the estimates provided and the results are below? Perhaps I misunderstood the figures given

    The actual figures themselves (ignoring quality) are lower than I've seen elsewhere.

    Including quality, does this just mean now people are digging deeper in collections to get rid of things at the current market? I mean, it looks like a lot of real impressive cars have traded hands over the past 12 months, suggesting sellers are opening the vault at these peak prices.
     
  16. 275gtb6c

    275gtb6c Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 30, 2006
    1,929
    europe
    Full Name:
    oscar
    Hello Dave,

    perhaps you can spread your constant negative comments somewhere else as they start becoming quite annoying. Yes some cars did not make their lower estimate at the RM auction in London but the quality of the cars says it all. I looked around but did not see you in person so I think your information is second hand and biased.

    Good cars did pretty well and people were well informed. Trying to talk the market down is rather cheap and after your numerous attempts it still does not work. Perhaps you finally should buy a nice car or try another community or hobby. Perhaps Chinese stocks?

    ciao
    Oscar
     
  17. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

    Aug 31, 2002
    6,509
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Peter
    #67 peterp, Sep 9, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
    You can't ignore quality -- especially for Ferraris where the restoration costs are unavoidably very expensive. If the cars sold for crazy money, regardless of quality, that would be the surest sign of a bubble. I didn't look at all of the cars, but the auction photos of the 2 330 GT's show that they were far below the quality we have seen in prior (recent) auctions.

    I'm curious about this also. If the market was super-heated, I would expect the auction houses to have their pick of tons of cars wanting to be sold and I would expect them to choose the best quality among those available. The fact that the car quality was not great might also suggest there isn't a bubble (there aren't tons of sellers) -- or maybe (as some have suggested) this auction was less attractive to sellers so it just didn't attract the best cars.
     
  18. Super_Dave

    Super_Dave Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2014
    710
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dave

    Oscar, I realize you feel these discussions are between the "haves and have nots" as you stated previously, and that you are one of these "haves".

    I must therefore be one of those "have nots"?

    Perhaps I should finally buy myself a nice car? Interesting assumption from you. I recently bought another "fun" car and currently have 3 "fun" cars. Are they "nice" cars... who knows what your standards are, but I happen to think they are quite nice :)

    My negative comments? My negativity on here attacking people -- didn't realize I was doing that? Or my negativity thinking prices are too high? Is it negativity, really? I would say people on here saying "prices are going up, better buy now" is just as negative -- in some ways more so, as now those are cars will be unaffordable to those "have nots".

    But because you construct a world where people give opinions due solely to their personal biases (have vs. have nots) I guess it is difficult for you to see the other side?

    I saw the list and maybe I really fundamentally misunderstood... what I saw were estimate ranges and then actuals / no sales at the lower end or below the lower end of those ranges. Regardless of quality, I would have thought that implies a pretty poor result, since I assumed (wrongly?) that the auction house assessment of value ranges took into account the condition range of the cars.

    Stop thinking those of us with a differing opinion from the majority have that different opinion because we can't afford those cars, or that opinions are somehow tied to owning something. It is a very old way of thinking, and a very narrow minded one.
     
  19. Super_Dave

    Super_Dave Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2014
    710
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I realize that quality makes a big difference, but since I wasn't able to inspect the cars (and without digging into the assessed condition) I set that aside to make my observation.

    My second observation is that the estimate ranges would include quality, no? If not, then there is nothing that can be made from the results. If yes, then the auction had poor results compared to the expectations put forward by the auction house. Again, I'm going off my read of the list, which could be wrong.

    In terms of bubbles, there clearly is a massive one. That is almost without question from any objective observer. Prices don't rise so fast on entirely non income generating assets in such a short period of time, unless there is massive speculative activity.

    The more difficult question, as with any bubble, is when it will go "pop" and the severity of the effects. I've speculated 6-12 months or so (as of about 3 or 4 months ago?) and so this is earlier than I would have guessed. The auctions seem to be peaking in terms of activity and every new data point will be interesting and so I follow this. I also follow the tech industry, which I am extremely close to, to get a feel for that bubble too.

     
  20. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,062
    London. UK.
    Full Name:
    Paul Baber
    Gentlemen please lets stick to facts. I was there and closely looked at all the older Ferrari......The 365 GTC was average and as I previously stated its high bid was fair value.....The 330 GT Series 1 would have shown better in any other colour than its Red.....again, it was average. The 330 GT Series 2 was appalling. One wouldnt have recognised it as the same car from the catalogue photograph. In my opinion the Lusso was a very honest car and one I would have been proud to own personally. The 365 GT 2+2 may have looked better away from the very strong spot lights but they made the new Red paint look wrong......I know of few 2+2 Ferrari that benefit from Red paint.

    Comparing previous RM London auctions, this years offerings were mediocre to poor but it must be so difficult for any auction house to fill a catalogue with decent cars. They most certainly dont get the pick of the crop as really good cars tend to change hands via specialists or privately. Auctions were traditionally the venue where you took a car if you couldnt sell it and for all the glitz and glamour I still think this is fundamentally so.What auctions do provide is a fairly accurate current market value regardless of make and model.

    They say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what one man may consider poor value or quality another will wish to buy.
     
  21. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

    Aug 31, 2002
    6,509
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Peter
    Estimates certainly include consideration of consideration, so this is a valid point.

    I would also expect there to be a bubble given the run-up, but haven't seen any evidence of it. Bubble pops happen when there are more sellers than buyers and there hasn't seemed to be an excess of sellers at any point despite the run-up. Hopefully someone with direct knowledge can provide more color on the queues to get into auctions -- are auctions picking and choosing which cars to sell from a deep backlog (meaning their selectivity acts as a throttle on the bubble) or are they auctioning every presentable car they can represent (suggesting there is no bubble yet)? I think I recall a prior post indicating it's the former, but don't recall the specifics of that post now.
     
  22. Super_Dave

    Super_Dave Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2014
    710
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    Bubble doesn't require being popped for it to exist.

    Of course most / all bubbles do pop. Timing the pop is harder than recognizing its existence IMHO but of course more important or necessary to first recognize its existence.

    I think color on the auctions will give more insight on timing and severity of when this deflates.

    In the end, prices at reasonable levels, with people buying cars not for reasons of what might be next to surge and what may go up in price next year, will benefit everyone with a passion for these cars.
     
  23. stradman

    stradman Formula 3

    Jan 8, 2004
    1,284
    London UK
    Full Name:
    Stradman
    A bubble as far as I understand usually pops when there is mass exodus of people trying to offload their asset/commodity, to sell because it is a sellers market and therefore want to take profits or because they are in distress as a result of changes to their financial circumstances forcing their hand(see previous interest rate spikes meaning any loans on the cars became expensive and therefore unaffordable).

    As to the first reason, this would have to mean that a majority of classic car owners-including car enthusiasts who do not buy purely for financial gain- would suddenly be inclined to want to put their cars up for sale thereby resulting in a glut of cars- I don't, at least, see this currently happening around me.
    As to the second reason, I can't see interest rates rising anytime soon at least, and therefore barring some catastrophic Armageddon, there goes that mechanism of action.
    Can anyone else tell me how, within the next 6 months as has been suggested, this bubble is supposed to therefore pop??
    Personally I don't see any bubble bursting. The market will flatten a bit, then go up a bit thereby wax and wane...Good cars will always sell for good money no matter what anybody thinks or even wishes for....
     
  24. Super_Dave

    Super_Dave Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2014
    710
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I'm certain that many of the top cars go at the auctions rather than privately, given the cars that have traded hands through auctions. More attention and ego padding (either gratuitous or kept personal) can't hurt the sale price when a market is hot. The event of it all doesn't hurt either.

    As for this particular auction, I was just going by the results list, which showed (I thought?) the estimate ranges. The estimates are based on the vehicles and so account for condition, no?

    In any case, these auctions are woven directly into the value of the items sold and the market for those items, or I would not comment on the implications to prices. My take was that this looked like a mediocre to poor result based on prices vs. estimates. I may be completely off and the estimates were something I misread / misunderstood, or something else entirely went on that I don't comprehend.

    Perhaps I should attend an event on the East Coast or even get involved with my own exotics dealer who is holding semi-private auctions now (apparently everyone is getting in on the action!) I don't know how many classics will come up, but I imagine some good ones will given their clientele (myself excluded, of course).
     
  25. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2003
    2,748
    Surrey, England
    Full Name:
    Matthew

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