RM Ferrari Leggenda e Passione Auction | Page 7 | FerrariChat

RM Ferrari Leggenda e Passione Auction

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by BIGHORN, May 12, 2009.

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  1. Cris Bertschi

    Cris Bertschi Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
    801
    Buenos Aires
    Full Name:
    Cristián Bertschi
    #151 Cris Bertschi, May 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  2. etienne

    etienne F1 Veteran

    Jan 21, 2006
    5,789
    Ferrari World...
    #152 etienne, May 22, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  3. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    2,344
    New York City
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    Dave Powers
    Great photos (and Cris as well). Merci!
     
  4. Michele

    Michele Formula Junior

    Aug 27, 2006
    510
    The Hague, Holland
    Full Name:
    Michiel Mulder
    Probably has something to do with the bankruptcy of Kroymans Corporation. Kroymans is the owner of this car.
     
  5. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    I was told Classiche had issues with the car.

    I think the car is not part of the Bankruptcy but owned by his Son.

    Others?
     
  6. Cris Bertschi

    Cris Bertschi Formula Junior

    Mar 3, 2005
    801
    Buenos Aires
    Full Name:
    Cristián Bertschi
    #157 Cris Bertschi, May 22, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  7. michael platzer

    michael platzer F1 Veteran

    Nov 12, 2003
    5,220
    Austria
    Full Name:
    Michael Platzer
    the telaio plate does not look original
     
  8. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
    4,300
    Cape Town, South Afr
    Full Name:
    Jack Verschuur
    Is this the car that Schouwenburg painted using his vacuum cleaner back in the seventies?
     
  9. etienne

    etienne F1 Veteran

    Jan 21, 2006
    5,789
    Ferrari World...
    #160 etienne, May 22, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The (ex) Schermerhorn collection. By order :

    -lot 222, 250 GTE 2+2, # 3227GT, sold for 117 600 €
    -lot 223, 500 Superfast, # 6043SF, sold for 728 000 €
    -lot 224, 195 inter Ghia, # 0105S, not sold (190 000 #)
    -lot 225, 166 inter Touring, # 017S, sold for 263 200 €
    -lot 226, 250GT Boano, # 0569GT, sold for 408 800€
    -lot 227, 365GTB/4, # 13653, sold for 212 800 €
    -lot 228, 166 inter Stab. Farina, # 037S, withdrawn
    -lot 229, 212 inter Vignale, # 0287EU, sold for 347 200 €
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  10. elads

    elads Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2004
    282
    israel
    Full Name:
    elad
    copywrite Bloomberg


    Ferraris Left Unsold After Record-Breaking Testa Rossa Auction
    2009-05-21 23:00:01.5 GMT


    By Scott Reyburn
    May 22 (Bloomberg) -- Classic-car specialist RM Auctions is
    in negotiations to find buyers for several high-value speedsters
    that failed at its “Ferrari Leggenda e Passione” sale at
    Maranello, Italy, on May 17.
    The final lot, a 1957 Ferrari 250 Testa Rossa, sold to a
    telephone buyer for 9 million euros ($12.2 million) with fees, a
    record for any car offered at auction. It had been expected to
    fetch up to 12 million euros, RM Auctions said before the sale
    at the Italian carmaker’s factory near Modena. Several other
    substantially estimated lots failed on the day.
    Buyers and sellers are more hesitant at car auctions than
    they were a year ago because of the economic slump. Success
    rates at some classic-car sales remain relatively high, as more
    lots go unsold in other parts of the auction market.
    A Ferrari 330 P4 that came third in the 1967 Le Mans 24-
    hour race and was subsequently converted for daytime CanAm
    racing was unsold at a bid of 7.25 million euros. It had been
    expected to fetch 8 million euros. A 1962 Ferrari 250 GT
    California Spyder (SWB), estimated to fetch at least 4.3 million
    euros, was also a casualty. Both cars had U.S.-based sellers.
    “Quite a few of the American vendors had too-high
    reserves,” John Collins, director of the U.K.-based Ferrari
    dealers Talacrest Limited, said. “Because of fluctuations in
    the exchange rate, it’s now more expensive for Europeans to buy
    cars from America.”
    Over the last 12 months, the euro and the pound have
    respectively lost 12 percent and 20 percent of their value
    against the U.S. dollar.

    Moss’s Maserati

    Among three Maseratis included in the sale, the 250F racing
    car in which Stirling Moss won the 1956 Monaco Grand Prix failed
    against a low estimate of 1.7 million euros.
    “Single-seat racers are always difficult to sell,” Simon
    Kidston, a Geneva-based classic-car adviser, said in a telephone
    interview. “The recovery hasn’t started in earnest. Sellers
    need to adjust their expectations.”
    The 2009 auction, which was staged in association with
    Sotheby’s, raised 21.2 million euros, said RM. A total of 75
    percent of the cars sold, and 95 percent of the memorabilia,
    Kerrey Kerr-Enskat, RM Auctions’ director of public relations,
    said in an e-mail. The sale last year took 29 million euros.
    “In the current environment, I thought the sale was going
    to be terrible,” Collins said in a telephone interview. “It
    did far better than I expected.”
    He was in negotiations with RM to buy two cars, both priced
    in “seven figures,” that failed to sell at auction, Collins
    said.

    Coburn’s Spyder

    At last May’s sale at Maranello, U.K. television and radio
    host Chris Evans paid 7 million euros (then $10.9 million) with
    fees for a black 1961 Ferrari 250 GT SWB California Spyder. The
    price was then an auction record. The Ferrari had formerly been
    owned by the movie actor James Coburn.
    Higher prices have been achieved for classic cars through
    privately negotiated sales.
    Within the last eight months, two 1960s Ford GTO racers
    have sold for $20 million each, said dealers.
    “In January, I offered a collector $22 million for a GTO
    and was turned down,” Collins said. “He wanted $30 million.”
    Another example of the 170 mph Testa Rossa was sold
    privately for $15 million in 2007, Kidston said. The most
    desirable models competed in the Le Mans 24-hour endurance race,
    he said. The Maranello open-top Testa Rossa didn’t have a Le
    Mans history, said RM.
    Among the other successes at the Italian auction were a
    1959 Ferrari 250GT California (LWB) at a price of 2.1 million
    euros. A 1964 Ferrari 500 Superfast, the most expensive
    production car of its time, sold for 715,000 euros against a
    high estimate of 500,000 euros.
    “Beautiful cars like these appeal to new younger buyers,”
    Collins said. “They go for looks. The market is much softer for
    competition cars. Ten to 15 years ago, they were hot to sell.”

    (Scott Reyburn writes about the art market for Bloomberg
    News. Opinions expressed are his own.)

    For Related News and Information:
    Top Arts and Lifestyle Stories: MUSE <GO>.
    Sotheby’s auctions BID US <Equity> TCNI AUCTION <GO>.
    London art auction news search: STNI LONDONART <GO>.
    Art reviews: TNI ART REVIEWS <GO>.

    --Editors: Mark Beech, Richard Vines.
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    For those who may be interested I will be on Bloomberg TV on Tuesday at about 5pm NY time talking about this auction.
     
  12. elads

    elads Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2004
    282
    israel
    Full Name:
    elad
    Jim,
    PLs make sure that you have a picture of the "Ford" GTO that sold for 20+ mio according to BBG, im sure all viewres will be amazed at that Barn find... ;-)
     
  13. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    :0
     
  14. 2GT

    2GT Formula 3

    Aug 25, 2008
    1,830
    Western NY
    Full Name:
    Fred
    Quite a few years ago, Road & Track, in an article on the Madison Avenue Sports Car Driving and Chowder Society (I've probably butchered the name), included a sample from the club's tongue-in-cheek newsletter: a classified ad read: "Will trade Pontiac GTO for Ferrari Chieftain." Now, a FORD GTO, that's a completely different animal! I'd expect the owner would trade for no less than a Ferrari Thunderbird! Fred
     
  15. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
    Full Name:
    george burgess
    Jim, so what's your problem. As I have suggested if the car is converted by Classiche back to its original P4 of course it's not then an original P4 but a factory rebuild/restoration to the original and the whole world will know it. The CanAM body and parts can be retained as a movable display and shown as desired by the owner.This in it's self would be unique and would draw geast attention at any event where both were displayed together. Just think if 0808TR was displayed with each of its bodies all together in one place. I'll bet you would give it some real time. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  16. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,690
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    Automobile Quarterly Vol 1 #2 Meet The Chowderheads by Henry Austin Clark Jr.
    Madison Avenue Sports Car Driving and Chowder Society.

    BTW Clam chowder is white not red:)
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    The engine currently in 0858 is not a P4 engine, it is a 350 Can Am engine STAMPED as a 350 Can Am engine not a P4 engine, 0858's chassis was modified in period by Ferrari to a 350 Can Am chassis which is different than a P4 chassis, and many other modifications were made in period by Ferrari that make this a 350 Can Am not a P 4.

    You think having Ferrari build a new 4 liter P4 engine today, cutting out their original 350 Can Am chassis modifications, building a new Replica P4 body and putting it on this newly modified chassis which no longer had it's original Ferrari 350 Can Am modifications would be a good thing?

    You think the owner of the Breadvan should strip off it's current body, destroy it's period chassis modifications and mount a new replica SWB body? How about the owner of the Series II 250 GTO that won the 12 Hours of Sebring? Think he should remove the original Series II body that was on the car when it got the Checker and replace it with a "Prettier" Series I body?

    Once again I think preserving history is a good thing and destroying it simply because you think something is prettier is a bit sad.

    If you owned the Mona Lisa you could have someone repaint her smile to something you liked better.

    I wouldn't.
     
  18. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2007
    10,254
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    Tom Tanner
    I like your point of view, but you are comparing apples and oranges. The Drogo Breadvan modifications were not done at the factory. If you are a true hardcore patina loving Ferrari historian not swayed by the cars unique looks you would want it converted back to a SWB, wich I think would be a mistake.
    I think most collectors of all things, even non Ferrari collectibles do prefer them to be as original. How many important racing Ferrari's have been converted back to original after being rebodied? I would say almost all, and the 350 CANAM I suspect will have the same happen sooner or later. It still is a P4 modified to a 350 CANAM.


    Tom Tanner/Scale Designs/Ferrari Expo 2010

     
  19. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    #170 Napolis, May 22, 2009
    Last edited: May 22, 2009
    You can make a reproduction of what is was originally but you can't make it original again. When does restoration become reproduction?

    Case in point. 0858's current engine. 4.2 liters not 4 liters. Stamped as Typo 350 Can Am. IMO sleeving it back to 4 Liters and eradicating it's original stampings and re stamping it as Tipo P4 would not make it original and would cross the line from restoring to recreating.

    0858 is a Wonderful, Very original 350 Can Am. It's not as valuable as an original P4. If my bid had been accepted I would have kept her as she is. I realize many wouldn't and that that's fine. In the end everyone makes themselves happy.
     
  20. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,690
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    Leonardo painted and repainted the Mona Lisa over the many years he kept possession of it. Would anyone suggest that it be returned to a prior iteration?
     
  21. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2007
    10,254
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    Tom Tanner
    Thats very true, but he never really finished it until the end. Ferrari did finish the 350 Can Am as a P4 and raced it.

    I wish Jim had won the car. He atleast understands the importance of the
    350 Can Am as is. Im not so sure a rebodied P4 version of the 350 Can Am would sell for less than it is now. Remember alot of the bidding is done by the heart, not the brain. The look of the P4 would appeal to some more than the 350 Can Am.

    Tom Tanner/Scale Designs/Ferrari Expo 2010
     
  22. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    2,344
    New York City
    Full Name:
    Dave Powers
    Tom,
    0858 is original. It's the way the car originally left factory/Scuderia- in the same way that (as Jim indicates) all the Series I GTO's that the factory converted to Series II (and there are more cars to add to this list) are original. I think the fact that they remain in their original, second body by the factory to this day is a good template for what a future owner of 0858 may decide. At least I hope.

    With respect to the Breadvan, it's wonderful that it retains its period-replacement (non-factory) Drogo body to this day. I am glad that its successive owners have had the perspective to appreciate it for what it is.

    In the old days, before the run-up in values, you could evoke the following argument without sounding elitist/classist/capitalist,... what have you;
    If you want an SWB, buy an SWB. If you want the Breadvan, buy the Breadvan. If you want a P4, buy 0856. If you want a 350 Can Am, buy 0858 (or 0860). Etc., etc.

    Money has (as it always does) changed everything.
    If it means cars saved, IMO, that's a good thing.

    If it means people go nuts putting all kinds of many decades later (in several cases)- half-assed or ill-proportioned replica bodies on, etc. WHILE at the same time discarding or setting aside the 'period' metal (fiberglass in some cases, Paul S.) and history... IMO, we all lose in that case.

    One need look no further than 8C 2.3 Alfas to see how muddied things can become, quickly. Not everyone has the foresight and good taste to be an effective steward and custodian for something special like a Viotti-bodied 8C 2.3 coupe. I'm glad Arturo Keller does.

    Best,
    Dave
     
  23. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
    2,344
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    Dave Powers
    Maybe just some Crest White Strips, David
     
  24. F1tommy

    F1tommy F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2007
    10,254
    Chicagoland USA
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    Tom Tanner
    Well said. Dont even get me started on 2.3's. The worst case is #2211053!!
    Brian Brunkhorst woudn't have sold it if he had know. The Viotti body is also wonderful. Someday the bodies will re-join their original chassis.

    Tom Tanner/Scale Designs/Ferrari Expo 2010
     

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