RIP Dan Wheldon -- Indycar Season Finale in Vegas

Thanks for the "nut's", and yes I know how those things work. Call it crass marketing then, not only would it help the charity and the kids, it would garner A LOT of media exposure, much more than the $5mil "investment" would buy I'm guessing.

If offended, Call it a college fund for the kid's then, college isn't getting any cheaper. Add the fact it seems he's been more journeyman driver than steady earner and I think the idea of $2.5mil from a corporation is similar to passing the hat at a C&C.

The other half was for the charity he supported which isn't going to have him around as a spokesman anymore. It wouldn't be the first time things like this were or are done.

agreed,

I don't think that's a fair statement, the "change"(new tub's) preceded the tragedy(DW's death). Development of the new car that Wheldon was part of is ongoing and his death one could argue had little if anything to do with the "change" that is imminent regardless of this happening.

The fact of the matter is the old tub saved more lives than it took and it was a perfect storm of circumstances that lead to Wheldon's death. You can do everything "perfectly" in terms of the latest safety systems and people are still going to die in an inherently dangerous sport/environment they choose to participate in.

At the end of the day people die in open and closed cars in motorsports.

 

They've been running Indy/open wheel cars for 100+ yrs.

The early days of the sport did not bring it's demise, the loss of Dan Wheldon is not a reason to end open wheel racing.

Persevere with safety advances, of course. With any endeavor that embodies any risk you are going to lose people along the way regardless of attempting to do everything you can to mitigate risk.

Not to be insensitive but how many "bigger" names than Wheldon passed driving open wheel race cars and the sport still soldier's on in it's base identity.

It's unfortunate, of course. Death happen's everyday in far less "spectacular" arena's that affect more people uncovered by the media yet there are no threads calling for their revision as is this one.

Dan died participating in a pursuit he loved and embraced. It's sad, unfortunate and unnecessary even. He's not the first and won't be the last.

That's human nature at very base, he chose to be all in on that day.

 

There is nothing wrong with open wheel racing. NASCAR has had it's tragedies also. Look at Robert Kubica's rally accident that could have cut him in half.

The problem is that some tracks are not meant for this kind of racing. Vegas is one of them. It was designed for NASCAR, not Indy.

 

+1

 

Wasn't Vegas originally a good spot for the IRL, then they (vegas) redesigned the track giving it steeper banked corners? If I remember correctly Vegas was fairly flat when it first opened.

 

There were a few races where a couple of F1 cars had covered wheels, but luckily that didn't catch on and it is now banned.

As for what defines the untouchable core of open wheel racing to me:

- open wheels, no partial or full fenders
- single seater, no 2nd seat next or behind the driver
- open cockpit with no canopy, the helmet of the driver clearly visible to the audience
- no Diesel engines
- no electric only engines
- no speed limits (outside of pit lane or special situations like SC)

Things I have no problem with if they are allowed or banned:
- position of the engine
- wheels driven (front, rear, all)
- wheels steered (front, rear, all)
- any kind of aerodynamics (passive, active)
- any kind of driver aids (assuming the driver still steers, accelerates and brakes the car)
- normal aspirated, turbo charged or supercharged engine
- engine size
- car weight, size
- lights
- number of wheels, axles
- types of tires
- engine size
- types of brakes
- types of gearboxes

So for the most part I'm very wide open to any kinds of changes. As long as they don't touch the very core of open wheel monoposti.

 

Again, I find your personal ethics disturbing.

Dale

 

That's not a question of ethics but of keeping the formula as pure as possible.

The whole point of open wheel cockpits is that the audience can see the driver. Otherwise we might as well watch endurance racing, DTM or NASCAR.

It is not that I'm "lusting" for a decapitation or a driver getting hit by a tire. But I do want to see my driver racing. Or at the very least his helmet like knights in a joust.

If there were some kind of Star Trek invisible force shield that would protect the drivers from harm in an open cockpit I'm all for it. The thing I don't like about the canopy is that it will never be transparent: There will always be shadows and light reflections to the eye.

Also it is questionable whether a canopy would actually help that much: Any metal object (like the spring, that hit Massa) would likely shatter a canopy if the car hits it with 200+ mph. Same argument goes for wheels (eg. the young Surtees). Wheldon would still be killed even with a canopy. The FIA is improving the helmet standards based on Massa's accident, a much better solution.

Canopies are more helpful in the kind of accident Schumacher almost suffered at the 2010 Abu Dhabi GP where he was nearly decapitated. A canopy would have deflected the front wing of a slowly approaching car away.

However a canopy would have not helped in another near decapitation of Schumacher at the Interlagos GP where he nearly slid underneath the raised shovel of a construction machine.

Canopies would be helpful in very few and extremely rare accidents. And they would probably be a contributing factor to many other accidents where they would entrap the driver or shatter and send shrapnel into the driver's torso or face.

 

So I take it you boycott open wheel racing and don't watch it, support it's sponsor's, buy any products associated with it, etc., etc., etc. then?

 

Agreed.
On road courses and flatter ovals Indy cars have a safety record on a par with most modern formulae.
In our rush to child proof racing lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.
(Sorry Ian).
One question that hasn't been addressed is if Indy car has allowed racing at a track like Vegas because of its financial issues. In this case has the need to improve the "show" meant a sacrifice of safety?

 

+1

And while we discuss the benefits of fenders and canopies: Alboreto was killed in a car with fenders and a roof. Not having open wheels is no guarantee for not getting airborne.

Racing is dangerous. Accept it or watch/play golf.

 

Oops, my bad. That's how much I care about endurance racing.

Still I believe the open cockpit was not what did him in

 

Reports on tv stated it was massive head trauma that caused his death and it sure seemed to me that his head actually hit the fencing and possibly the wall, I doubt that would have happened so severly in a closed cockpit but it quite possibly can and does. One thing I think is certain is that his brain was bouncing around in his skull from the g-forces.

Regardless he is gone and I'm sure we will get more detailed info after the investigation is completed.

 

Ah, ok. Thanks.

Not to be too gruesome here but I wonder whether Wheldon would have possibly survived his accidents even without the head trauma: I didn't hear anything about his neck but I could easily imagine that it broke during the violent impact. Gilles Villeneuve was probably dead before his doll like body was flung out of the car because he broke his neck at first impact. Some deceleration forces are just too much. Winkelhock and Belloff come to mind who were relatively "protected" inside their endurance cars but too many negative Gs just crushed their organs.

Racing is dangerous. Any form of.

 

It's a long chain of events that are behind any racing fatality. I think that in this case the pertinent one is tne decision to race Indy cars on that track.

 

I know little about Indy cars and ovals, but from looking at some of the comments on here I am getting that feeling too:

- short oval
- steep banking
- a lot of cars
- prize money for "reversed grid"

Then again, bad things can always happen. I remember Andretti's test in which he got airborne and nearly escaped. Could have gone very different as well.

 

I want to think his HANS device saved him from a DE style injury but who can say? As you said racing is dangerous in any form.

 

Which gets back to my question if safety wasn't compromised for the sake of the show.

 

Very good question. I'm curious about the changes that will be made if any?

 

If you say that fans of open wheel racing watch only because the drivers are unnecessarily risking their lives, I believe you because I respect your opinions. But it saddens me.

As of right now, that is correct. Apparently, this "sport" is not what I thought it was.

Dale

 

Viewing racing as just a sport isn't enough. There's no getting around the fact that it's at least as much a business.
Which reminds me of an old Groucho Marx line "If you look at it, it's a barn. If you smell it, it's a stable."

 

The simple fact is, in motorsports, physics will always find a way to kill someone, regardless of how "safe" we try to make it.

 

I agree but that doesn't mean you can't work to improve safety or look logically at something that is just too high a risk.

We don't let drivers wear overalls and leather helmets anymore. We don't lose on average one driver a year.

It's dangerous. But, it's more dangerous if you take a track like Vegas designed for Nascar vehicles and put cars on it never intended to race there safely.

You can be smart about safety or just plain stupid. I think smart is better and the racing isn't affected at all.

 

Of course it is, it's calculated risk, as are the rest of them.

So that includes F1 and other open wheel racing or just Indycar because they run on middle sized ovals? and no F-car/P-car, M-car in the garage because of the reckless/dangerous pursuit of motorsports and the fact that people have died in tin tops as well?

Not that I have to get your argument but I really don't especially with this moral high ground you attempt to lay claim to with claims of bloodlust if you want the sport to stay stay true to it's roots of exposed wheel and no canopies.

I'd not watch the stick and ball sports, cycling, motorcycle racing, etc., etc. on the weekends either then. One could make a case they are risking lives/serious injury as well if we're going to admonish this one sport and its risks...

Not sure where your argument ends actually as you can't mitigate ALL risk in most sporting pursuits.