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RIP 1961 250GTE #2709

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by FarEastFerrari, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. FarEastFerrari

    FarEastFerrari Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2014
    433
    Hong Kong, LA & NY
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    Thomas Choi
    I came upon a sad news that my previously owned 250 GTE #2709 has been stripped of its chassis and engine and all components and her body sold off. I am really not happy to hear this news and had I known that would have been her fate with the new owner, I would have never sold her. RIP.. I guess she'll rise again as another California, SWB or GTO copy.
     
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  3. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    895
    Sad and stupid. Everyone acknowledges we are at the end of a cycle. While no one knows if future will be flat, slowly up or down or massively down ( depending who you are, your preferences and / frustrations, etc) breaking up a good car today to make a replica is clearly out of sync with market. So in a year time they will have a replica that won't sell at cost . From an economic point of view this makes no sense, and for the respect of history of brand, a shame.
     
  4. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr Two Time F1 World Champ

    Jun 9, 2005
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    #3 Christian.Fr, Sep 19, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
    Yerterday night I saw a Tv program about falsification. Ferrari, Lambo etc
    It s coming a real problem for all.
    No picture of your ex car?
     
  5. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran

    Feb 22, 2004
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    Tom Wiggers
    And that is not the only one! A few more soon to be dismantled/used.
     
  6. dsd

    dsd F1 Rookie
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    Nov 19, 2006
    3,856
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    OMG, that hurts my soul.

    I'm sorry to hear. It just makes no sense.
     
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  8. FarEastFerrari

    FarEastFerrari Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2014
    433
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    Thomas Choi
    I saw the a photo of the car dismantled. I was asked to keep the photo private by the person who sent it to me. When I first purchased 2709, it had many things wrong with it. We found the original replacement bumpers, steering wheel, etc. All gone now.
     
  9. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie

    May 26, 2011
    3,049
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I'm sorry Thomas, a truly sad story.
     
  10. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
    Global Moderator Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2003
    36,812
    Babcock Ranch, FL
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    Dave
    That is really a bummer.

    You put your heart and soul into getting a car right, and the next guy says, "**** it, let's rip it apart and make a fakey-do car out of it."

    But, he paid fair value for it, can do what he wants, I guess.

    D
     
  11. carguyjohn350

    carguyjohn350 F1 Rookie
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    Mar 7, 2007
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    Very unfortunate.

    Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
     
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  13. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    I am ashamed to admit this but unfortunately there is a company in my country, New Zealand, that has built 5 Testa Rossa's and at least one GTO has a full order book ...

    So please don't sell your cars!
    Pete
    Reference NZ Classic Driver magazine, Sept-Oct 2015 issue
     
  14. FarEastFerrari

    FarEastFerrari Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2014
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    Thomas Choi
    #11 FarEastFerrari, Sep 19, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
    It's kind of weird. It's like buying a Picasso and then cutting up to make a jigsaw puzzle with Picasso painting parts. It's too bad.
     
  15. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Aug 13, 2002
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    I was hoping that the significant surge in the values of the GTEs and 330GTs would stave off the continued slaughter of these cars, but I guess the demand for fakes is too great; a sad commentary.

    But hey, maybe someday it will win a prize at a show as a GTO/TR/SWB/Cal having deceived the viewing public and judges through lies of omission or overt falsehoods!! (sarcasm alert)
     
  16. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,257
    The flip side is that quite a few GTE's will no doubt benefit from all the good parts left over that are not required for any conversion and will live much longer as a result, and being in better condition they will then escape the convertors.
     
  17. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Nov 11, 2003
    3,297
    How many rounds of windows do you need to keep your car alive?

    Cheers, Kare
     
  18. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    :)
     
  19. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,257
    Closed minds cannot be opened it seems, where else would 250GTE owners find replacement components for their cars other than from other dismantled examples.

    Jim, as you have jumped on board the debate, what is the difference between this Ferrari being converted into another car and what you did to a perfectly fine Ferrari Enzo to produce your car?

    If a snipe is aimed at my project as a result of my question then I would love to know how my 355 donor would ever have been rebuilt back to a standard example. I choose to use a car beyond any hope of ever living again.
     
  20. TTR

    TTR F1 Rookie
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    #17 TTR, Sep 21, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015
    I always find it bit ironic when sellers cry foul for the post sale actions of buyers in the cases like this. Aren't they enabling or at least partially responsible for the fate of said items when just accepting payment from latter ? And what about others echoing that cry ? In stead of publicly condem or vilify (only ?) buyers actions weren't they afforded an opportunity to purchase said item to "protect" its fate ? Just curious.
     
  21. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

    Aug 31, 2002
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    I don't think it has anything to do with closed minds, it has to do with values and preservation. Even if I was desperate for parts, I would not want to see another good car destroyed to get them. The search for parts and preserving everything rather than replacing is a large part of what makes vintage ownership fun if you are doing it for the right reasons.

    That project is reflective of what was the norm in the early days where coachbuilders fit custom bodywork to production chassis. It was and is a way of creating unique cars that add significantly to the portfolio and history of what Ferrari produced. Ferrari would be much less special today if there wasn't any coachbuilding back in the day, and there would be far fewer people that can recall individual Ferrari serial numbers in the same way that sports fans recall individual players from the past. P4/5 and other modern coachbuilding help preserve Ferrari's heritage going forward because it will be pretty boring in the future if all we have to look back on are a list of all the 458's, 430's, ... produced. That doesn't mean those production cars should later be trashed to make them into something else, but creating proper (production-worthy) variations when new adds to the history. Fakes, on the other hand, simply leach off of history. Not only do they not add to history, they dilute it at a rate of 2x. The best custodian in the world can only preserve history at a rate of 1x per car. People that create fakes destroy history at a rate of 2x per car because they remove one car that should exist and create another car that should never exist.

    It's a different set of circumstances if the original car is destroyed and can't be restored, but that's not the case with this GTE. Many of us felt that the positive aspect to the run-up of prices was that it would put a stop to this butchering, but apparently that's not the case. I haven't seen any fakes sell for big money, so I question whether this will even be a profitable endeavor. If the motive isn't profit, but to enjoy a car they couldn't otherwise afford, they should instead buy one of the fakes that already exists and tailor it to their liking instead of taking another chunk out of history.
     
  22. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,257
    I am sorry but the above is complete hogwash Peter P. The loss of one rare car to make another is exactly the same. So if the current owner of the GTE had gone to PF and said make me a unique car then that would have been just fine and dandy in your eyes? but if the owner decides he wants a copy of another classic ferrari instead then off with his head?
     
  23. peterp

    peterp F1 Veteran

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    No, that's not what I am saying. There is nothing you could do now to a GTE, other than restore a correct GTE body, that could be considered "correct" regardless of who did the work.

    My point is that it isn't fair to compare Jim's car to rebodying another car as a fake because: a) Jim's car is a new unique model rather than a replica of some prior model; and b) The creation of P4/5 was a resurrection of what Ferrari used to do very frequently in its early days.

    The early coachbuilt cars were done with the cooperation and blessing of the Ferrari factory. Ferrari provided the chassis, the coachbuilder provided the body, and the resulting cars were born as a custom car that was authorized to wear the Ferrari badge, usually with the coachbuilder's name as part of the model designation. Cars were custom-ordered this way from new and there isn't much ambiguity that they added a lot to the richness of Ferrari's history because it created a lot more unique cars than if coachbuilding didn't exist.

    Jim's P4/5 was a forced resurrection of coachbuilding within Ferrari. As the first mover after a long dormancy, Jim had to make bold moves, and it took some time for Ferrari to come around to endorsing it, but they have endorsed it. Now, as back in the day, Ferrari-endorsed coachbuilding will help cultivate a much more interesting history as time marches forward. Not just anybody throwing any body on a Ferrari, but factory-endorsed production-quality customs will help ensure that Ferrari remains as interesting and unique in the future as it has been in the past.
     
  24. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Pete
    The difference is Paul is that the Enzo was a current model and therefore Ferrari could always make another. These replicas are being built on old cars (btw not just GTE's) that are not current models and therefore irreplaceable.

    Conclusion: Anybody can do what they like with a brand or near new Ferrari, but a 50 year old one simply CANNOT be replaced!
    Pete
     
  25. T308

    T308 Formula 3
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    #22 T308, Sep 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  26. phrogs

    phrogs F1 Veteran
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    #23 phrogs, Sep 21, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015



    It's not up to you, you chose to sell it, once that happened you have nothing to do with the car.
    It's his car to do with as he pleases.

    everyone crying about what he is doing, you miss out on one of our greatest freedoms we get to do what we want with our stuff. If you had a say in it would you not then just be a Dictator? you would do it different, thats fine you should have bought it then.
     
  27. PAUL500

    PAUL500 Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2013
    2,257
    The Enzo even when in production was a limited edition car, there is now one less as a result, no different to taking a GTE and turning it into something else. That Enzo is gone for good just like the GTE to which this thread relates. Jims Enzo was a complete car Peter P not a rolling chassis that had never received a body, so should not be compared to what coachbuilders used to do the world over many many years ago.

    Don't get me wrong here, I have no issue what so ever with anyone doing whatever they like with a car they own, just the double standards that are prevalent on this forum depending on who is involved.
     
  28. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    74,228
    Houston, Texas
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    Bubba
    I am very sorry to read of this...it IS a lot of work "making them right"..

    Sad to see it all end with someone running the impact wrenches in the wrong direction.
    My condolences...
     

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