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Replacing starter motor on 1978 400 Auto

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by rustytractor, Oct 16, 2012.

  1. alastairhouston

    alastairhouston Formula Junior

    Apr 19, 2009
    575
    Largs Scotland UK
    Full Name:
    Alastair Houston
    Hi Russell
    I got mine done which is a 400GT as yours right hand drive. It was not possible to remove without taking off the manifolds and comes out underneath.

    'Roseneath Engineering' did this so I didnt get into specifics about exactly the procedure.


    Regards
    Alastair
     
  2. wrxmike

    wrxmike F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 20, 2004
    5,456
    Full Name:
    Michael
    It might be possible to undo the manifold from the head and push it to one side to gain enough clearance to remove the starter motor from underneath, I did not try that as I needed to complety remove the exhaust manifolds anyway to have them ceramic coated.

    I found that there was not enough room to completely remove the manifolds from under my RHD 412, which is why I removed the injection unit, heat shield and steering shaft to gain access from the top. Once those bits are out of the way, one can remove the starter motor, either from the top or the bottom (moot point)

    My suggestion is to try to move the manifold out of the way from under that car first, and if that works, that great, if not, be prepared to remove the carbs & inlet manifold to gain access from the top


    M
     
  3. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    Can anyone confirm that only O-Rings are used between the inlet manifold and block on a 400 with carbs.

    Thanks,

    Russ
     
  4. squidmark

    squidmark Karting

    Sep 11, 2011
    137
    Oxford
    Full Name:
    Howard Dent
    Yes indeed, 24 in total - good luck with your task Russ!

    Cheers, Howard.
     
  5. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    Thanks Howard, I thought this was the case but wanted to double check.

    So far I have the new starter, exhaust and inlet gaskets, bypass pipe gaskets (mine are crap) and just want to sort out replacement cables for the starter if possible so I have everything ready to complete the job in one go. The job is planned for December 8th and 9th as that's when my mate will next be free at the weekend to let me use his workshop and help me get the old girl running again (got withdrawal symptoms !!)

    If anyone can supply any info of cable length and connector types for both positive and negative terminals I'd appreciate it.
     
  6. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    Well, today I bit the bullet and replaced the starter in my carbed 400.

    Purchased all gaskets required beforehand (plus a few others just in case) and started at 9am this morning at my friends workshop.

    Job was far easier than I had expected, probably because the previous owner had the exhaust system inc. manifolds replaced with stainless a few years ago so all of the bolts came off without problem.

    After a bit of head scratching and careful evaluation of what did/didn't need to come off ) and in what order) I proceeded as follows:-

    1. Remove Airbox (pain in the butt as loads of bolts which are hard to get to but it came off eventually. I had already disconnected the bonnet strut to allow easier access but this may not have been required.

    2. Remove heatshield below airbox. Mine is right hand drive so getting it past the steering column was fiddly but it's aluminium (I think) so would flex.

    3. Remove as many manifold bolts as possible from above then lift the car and remove the remainder from below, The second heatshield covering the started could then be removed.

    4. Undo all bolts attaching manifolds to main exhaust system inc. bypass pipes.

    5. Remove manifolds from below.

    6. Disconnect starter wires, undo both bolts holding starter in place (top one was a bit fiddly but no special tools required)

    7. Clean everything, use emery cloth to brighten up the starter cable terminals.

    8. Fit a female, crimp-on connector to the starter switch wire (I fitted a gear reduction starter which is half the size and weight of an original starter and had a spade terminal for the switch as opposed to a screw fitting.

    9. Fit the new starter (top bolt easy as unit is much, much smaller).

    10. Fit cables to starter.

    11. Refit everything above in reverse order.

    12. Fiddle around with badly fitting exhaust for 2 hours.

    13. Start car - now turns over about 3 times faster than before !!

    14. Drive off happily into the sunset.

    Total time inc. running around local motor factors trying to locate some manifold to exhaust gaskets (these were totally f****d) was 8 hours start to finish.

    Not sure if this is harder on an injection car (I could get to the top bolts by removing the airbox but I don't know how an injection engine differs here re access) but I would happily do this again with no worries and it's 100% do-able for a competent home mechanic BUT having a lift made the job SO much easier than laying on the floor and I did have the benefit of access to a mechanics full set of decent tools which probably helped a lot.

    Anyway, thanks for all the advice, glad I finally got there.

    Russ
     
  7. Tassie

    Tassie Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2009
    342
    Tasmania, Australia
    Full Name:
    Wayne Clark
    Russell, well done. Where did you get the starter and how much if you don't mind. I may be up for one soon too. A$780 in Aust, made locally.
     
  8. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    Mine came from Mike at Ferraristarters.com. Advertised cost was around $425 USD but he also advertises on eBay so I called him up and haggled a direct price of $375 USD. Very nice guy, haggling on the phone was very funny. His shipping quote wasnt that expensive but then I'd have to pay import duty and vat but a friend of mine was going to Vegas so Mike sent it there FOC and my friend bought it back - very good timing ! Shipping may make this uneconomical to Upsidedown land - got any mates going to the US ?

    It came with a lifetime warranty, went in easily and works great.
     
  9. Highmiler

    Highmiler Formula Junior

    Dec 8, 2010
    414
    Missouri
    Full Name:
    Greg
    Many thanks for posting your step by step guide.
    I currently do not have a need but have been pondering how to get that starter out without removing the whole engine.
    Your report is going into my rainy day DIY folder right now.
    Thanks again,
    Greg
     
  10. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    No problem Greg, I was pretty nervous about doing the job but it turned out to be far less difficult than expected - I think I'd built it up to be a real monster in my mind so posting a step-by-step guide may help others if they have similar fears.

    Not sure about how easy doing an injected car would be but at least a left hand drive car wouldn't have the steering column in the way.
     
  11. Tassie

    Tassie Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2009
    342
    Tasmania, Australia
    Full Name:
    Wayne Clark
    Thanks Russell, I wonder if they make them for the Southern Hemisphere where maybe they have to spin backwards, you know like the water down the plug hole in the bath.
     
  12. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    I think they make a special Aussie version where the starter gear stays still but the whole car spins around it. I queried that this may make the driver dizzy but the manufacturer said that Australians are always drunk so a) they wouldn't notice or b) the spinning motion would counteract the alcohol and the driver would be sober again.

    I'm still not 100% if he was joking or not....
     
  13. alastairhouston

    alastairhouston Formula Junior

    Apr 19, 2009
    575
    Largs Scotland UK
    Full Name:
    Alastair Houston
    Nice work on the starter Russell
    Regards
    Alastair
     
  14. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    Was a bit of a saga but I'd happily do it again (on a carbed car anyway).

    Car was running great until yesterday when red fluid started leaking out of the drivers side front (prob power steering fluid but could be gearbox - anyone know if there's a cooling rad at the front ?)

    Also the old electrical problem came back when I left the workshop - I opened the drivers window when the car was on the lift but couldn't shut it plus the Fuel gauge and oil temp go mad when the lights are on or either of the window switch is pressed plus the gauge lights stay off when the lights are on but come on when the lights are off and I press either window switch. I still think its an earth issue but i checked and cleaned all earth leads a few months ago. Oh the joys of owning a 400 !

    Any and all advice very greatfully received.
     
  15. Tassie

    Tassie Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2009
    342
    Tasmania, Australia
    Full Name:
    Wayne Clark
    A lot of truth in that.
     
  16. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
    2,159
    Tampa bay
    Full Name:
    Bruce
    :D LOL :D
     
  17. Nathan76

    Nathan76 Formula Junior

    Jun 20, 2013
    340
    Leicestershire, UK
    Hi Russ - great guide to starter replacement - then i read the above -my starters has failed today - so when can i drop it in????!
     
  18. squidmark

    squidmark Karting

    Sep 11, 2011
    137
    Oxford
    Full Name:
    Howard Dent
    Nathan - if you get stuck, I have a spare standard starter.

    Howard.
     
  19. Nathan76

    Nathan76 Formula Junior

    Jun 20, 2013
    340
    Leicestershire, UK
    Hi Howard
    I may take you up on this offer. Tried to free it up this morning but still won't start. Battery is also drained after about 4 attempts to start I'm assuming due to the massive current draw of the motor. So now on charge...
     
  20. 300man

    300man Karting

    Mar 19, 2010
    122
    Howard, starter motor still hasn't shown up for the engine you're working on, so I'm also interested, unless we go for one of Russ's American motors?
     
  21. squidmark

    squidmark Karting

    Sep 11, 2011
    137
    Oxford
    Full Name:
    Howard Dent
    I think it could be done on an exchange basis anyway - I could get mine checked out first then if you need it Nathan, I could take yours in p/ex giving me one that could probably be fixed for Eric (300man).
    I'm sure we can make everyone happy - besides which Russ took one off which is probably fixable too - the place is lousy with 'em.
     
  22. Nathan76

    Nathan76 Formula Junior

    Jun 20, 2013
    340
    Leicestershire, UK
    Battery is refusing to charge at the minute. Once I get to the bottom of the issue and confirm it's definitely the starter I'll let you know. Thanks again for the offer of help. Give me a few days and I'll come back.
     
  23. rustytractor

    rustytractor Formula 3

    Mar 25, 2012
    1,078
    London
    Full Name:
    Russell Schacter
    Hi Nathan,

    Sorry to hear your starter failed, personally I'd 100% change it for a high torque unit as they're lighter, faster and guaranteed for life. I can point you to the guy I got mine from in the states if I didn't mention it in the thread (I really can't remember).

    If you need any help PM me again.

    Russ
     
  24. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 23, 2007
    4,859
    North Pole AK
    Get the modern gear reduction starter. I have one on my car and it works great.
     
  25. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

    Mar 24, 2007
    2,159
    Tampa bay
    Full Name:
    Bruce

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