Re-wiring tail lights | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Re-wiring tail lights

Discussion in 'California/Portofino/Roma' started by GNALUZU, Feb 17, 2013.

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  1. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,985
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    Terry H Phillips
    How are they going to find out you have more brake lights than OEM?
     
  2. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
    6,644
    Silicon Valley
    They'd have to look and know what they're looking for, but the revised wiring would be hard to miss. They would still have to prove it was a factor that contributed to the accident vs made it less likely to happen, however. Added lights up higher should be more visible than the stock lights down low.
     
  3. hotbmwm3

    hotbmwm3 Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2006
    553
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    Owner -09 California
    Life is about risk and reward, I'm comfortable with the risk on this mod :)

    Your experience may vary
     
  4. mjc_123

    mjc_123 Formula Junior

    Oct 16, 2010
    512
    NYC - Long Island
    many on this thread are trying to ADD lights to lower the possibility of the person behind you missing those small yellow brake lights that are too low. how did you come to suspect that this would be MORE likely to cause someone to rear-end you?? assuming of course that the mod is done correctly and one doesn't lose all lights entirely!
     
  5. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    Is it legal to alter the rear brake lights on a USA vehicle in the manner that people here are advocating?

    Of course I am not smart enough to understand that there is the possibility of a rear end collision with small low brake lights. And that the third brake light at eye level is not helpful at all too. :)
     
  6. rgdonnan

    rgdonnan Rookie

    Sep 18, 2010
    47
    SW FL USA
    Full Name:
    R Donnan
    Is it legal to drive your Ferrari over the posted speed limit?
    Come on folks, the only way for most Ferrari owners to stay legal is to leave their cars in the garage. While the mention of the legality of the proposed modification may have merit, this thread is to determine how the modification can be done. It is up to the owner to make the modifiction or choose not to, just as the owner chooses to continue to depress the accelerator pedal after attaining the posted speed limit.
    I prefer to hear from those that are able to offer constructive input to the topic at hand, how this modification can be accomplished.
     
    rgb125 likes this.
  7. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    #32 MalibuGuy, Feb 25, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
    Yes you are right to prefer to hear about the way to rewrite the lights and not hear about any of the consequences.

    How silly of me to discuss the legality. Obviously everyone who drives a Ferrari is breaking the law in one way or another. So you make a great point about how it makes no difference about this.

    I am pretty dumb sometimes.

    Or maybe the reason there are rules is so folks don't just create there own modifications which probably aren't tested at all.

    The correct way to move this forward would be to ask FNA about why the rear lights are configured the way they are.

    And then make this suggestion, which I am sure that they have already considered.

    After understanding the explanation, then one might have a better understanding.

    Perhaps then there would be a way forward with a better lighting solution.
     
  8. hotbmwm3

    hotbmwm3 Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2006
    553
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    Owner -09 California
    #33 hotbmwm3, Feb 26, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
    Thanks for letting us know you think it's "illegal"

    I'm not going to bother to say the act of altering the taillights is not an offence per see. Driving the car in certain USA states in a modified form might well be illegal.

    Which states do you think it is illegal in and why?

    Are you aware of the differences in legistaltion for a manufacturer to comply a car to federal safety standards is completely different to the end user of the car driving it once it has left the showroom floor.

    And even then, many of us here do not live in the land of lawyers like you do, are you saying I won't pass a UK Ministry of Transport (MOT) annual inspection?

    You live in the land of vexatious litigation and ambulance chasing lawyers.

    I don't, and have no desire to, and I think the chances of anyone caring about the placement of taillights on my car in Australia and the UK is basically ZERO.

    I look at North American California's with their stupid front yellow reflectors and can't believe people don't paint them body colour

    Perhaps they are scared of big brother telling them their car no longer complies with the federal department of transport lighting legislation

    If I went through life worrying about what every consequence of every action would go crazy

    Call me wild and reckless, but I'm going to change the position of my brake lights

    I respect your decision not to complete the modification on your car

    And your "advice" to us based on living in Southern California is duly noted

    And if we were removing the brake lights to save weight and the car no longer had brake lights then I understand that it would be a safety issue that concerned other road users

    As another poster noted, this mod is to INCREASE the safety of the car and make it easier to see the car stopping

    I have been driving in the centre of London and stopped suddenly with a transit can following me very closely and they had to make an emergency braking action which I believe was due to the low position of the brake lights and the high driving position of forward control commercial vehicles like transit vans.

    I'm sure my car could be repaired from a rear end collision, but who would want to buy my crashed Ferrari when I come time to sell it? They will just buy a car that hasn't crashed and who could blame them

    And irrespective of your opinion, we are going to modify our taillights :)

    I don't care why Ferrari didn't implement it, I have no doubt it's because of a stupid law somewhere in the world

    Now back to making this happen. Now I'm really determined to do it because someone indirectly suggested I shouldn't :)
     
  9. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    #34 MalibuGuy, Feb 26, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
    In the USA, brake lights, turn signal lights and hazard lights need to be mounted on a non movable panel of the vehicle.

    In the Cali the two round lights are mounted to a movable panel so that is why they are not used as turn signal or hazard or brake lights.

    This is the law in the USA.

    I didnt' make the law. But now you understand why Ferrari designed the rear light system the way they did.

    Go ahead and do what ever you want.
     
  10. hotbmwm3

    hotbmwm3 Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2006
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    Owner -09 California
    Standard No. 108; Lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment.

    I will never have a Cali in the USA so I'm not going to read the information in my link in detail but my understanding is that most states have a state law that allows the adoption of the federal law in an identical adoption or a modified form allowing for state based inclusions or exclusions

    How the law is enforced will also vary state by state, I wonder would the taillight modification simply mean that a "fix it ticket" is issued

    That's a lot less severe than the car being towed and the owner sent to jail :)

    Can anyone that's USA based find the section in the link concerning stop lights on moveable parts?
     
  11. 09Scuderia

    09Scuderia Formula 3

    Nov 20, 2011
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    USA
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    Max
    in order for a cop to know the lights were made to work as brake lights he would have to know that they weren't originally brake lights. Chances of that happening...0.

    I can't imagine anyone ever suggesting that adding brake lights is a bad thing.
     
    NYC Fred likes this.
  12. ebobh15

    ebobh15 F1 Rookie
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    Nov 18, 2012
    3,074
    Understand the frustration of those who want to enhance the safety of the brake lights by making them more visible; having some experience with federal regulations (in this topic and elsewhere), the laws governing motor vehicles are so complex and byzantine they sometimes defy one's willingness to wade through them for direction. At the same time, they are (once you find the right sections) exceptionally clear and specific (just Google Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards- if you like the physics of braking, they even include the stopping and friction formulas so manufacturers have to comply).

    For brakes, as noted previously, in the USA, all lamps on a passenger vehicle must be affixed to a rigid part of the vehicle, and must conform to the visibility requirements (of FMVSS section 108). there are laws and rules for just about every conceivable instance, such as obstructed lamps by mirrors, temporary lamps, etc. They even spell out why the front side reflectors have to be yellow...

    That said, it's kind of like doing a remodel on your house. If you never sell, and never have a claim, and never cause damage to an outside party due to the construction, you are generally OK. If a storm happens, and you file a claim, the lack of permits can cause sincere headaches, and most likely mean your insurance won't cover it fully. You can re-wire the car, and in most instances, be fine until you sell (at which point you could be liable if you don't advise the buyer the car might be non-conforming) or if some knucklehead is texting instead of braking behind you.

    The police look at the gross function of the car in most instances (e.g., do the lights work, are they in the right place, etc.). Except for perhaps checking an exotic to ensure you have AS-1 glass, you shouldn't have a problem. If, though, you get in a collision and the damages are substantial (or if injury occurs), most insurers are doing spec inspections and could discern your wiring has been altered. If that happens, you'll be able to spend lots of discretionary cash on a tort attorney to defend your choice to modify the car...

    Re the law, the Code of Federal Regulations is the primary authority for motor vehicles, since they have standards that go across all states. States have limited exceptions, such as for emissions, but generally cannot override the feds (it is explicit in federal law, and states can only make laws that are not enumerated by the feds). Re the law re where lamps have to be placed, here it is in the FMVSS:

    Subpart B - Lamps, reflective devices, and electrical wiring

    393.25 Requirements for lamps other than head lamps.
    (a) Mounting. All lamps shall be securely mounted on a rigid part of the vehicle. Temporary lamps must be securely mounted to the load and are not required to be mounted to a permanent part of the vehicle.
    (b) Visibility. Each lamp shall be located so that it meets the visibility requirements specified by FMVSS No. 108 in effect at the time of manufacture of the vehicle.
    (skipped c-e, they list exceptions, standards, etc. - the brake light section follows)
    (f) Stop lamp operation. The stop lamps on each vehicle shall be activated upon application of the service brakes. The stop lamps are not required to be activated when the emergency feature of the trailer brakes is used or when the stop lamp is optically combined with the turn signal and the turn signal is in use.

    Perhaps the manner in which to approach this could be to contact FNA, ensure anything done conforms to the FMVSS, or is an authorized exception, and that the work is then done by someone licensed to do vehicle wiring. Who knows, it could generate a campaign to retro-wire Californias in general if they increase the surface illumination of the brake lights through the retrofit, thus increase safety.

    Bob H
     
  13. hotbmwm3

    hotbmwm3 Formula Junior

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    Thanks for taking the time to wade through the legislation

    If we take the wording literally, to me the only concern is in relation to the word rigid

    You can call me bill Clinton, but I believe it could be successfully argued that "rigid" is not the same as "immovable"

    If I was writing the law so that it was illegal for cars with a boot/trunk lid that pivots while the vehicle was in motion to have brake lights fitted to the moveable part (trunk lid) I would write it specifically

    Is it just me but I don't consider the word rigid was intended to imply that the trunk must be immovable whilst being driven
     
  14. ELP_JC

    ELP_JC Formula 3

    Dec 13, 2008
    1,264
    I'd be in for this mod. Brake lights look 'retarded' (not my words, but of many folks who think something is wrong with the brake lights). And I also much prefer to have them on top only, like they were intended to be (and MUCH safer). I'm sure a simple harness would be able to swap brake lights for fog lights. But the best mod would be a dual function of the parking lamps. Are those LEDs?

    By the way, I CANbus compatible LED bulb (from superbrightLEDs.com or similar) eliminates the dash error. But unfortunately, they don't eliminate hyperflashing on turn signals, so a larger resistor is still needed to prevent it.

    I'll be following this thread for an update. Have a good one folks.
     
  15. hotbmwm3

    hotbmwm3 Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2006
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    Thanks for the support :)
     
  16. ebobh15

    ebobh15 F1 Rookie
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    Nov 18, 2012
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    Generally, the rigid part of a vehicle is the part that extends from, or is affixed to, the frame in some manner (like the sheet metal, welded parts, etc.). That's why you'll see the taillights on a Pagani and Koenigsegg similarly mounted on the sheet metal (or carbon fiber). It does, though, only apply to cars made after 1968...

    True, there is some limited ambiguity in the use of "rigid" although there is ample reference to chassis mounting for towbars, rigid drawbars and similar. It would be an interesting argument, although the intent seems clear (at least to the feds). This thread has prompted me to take another look at the brake lights, though. If there is a better way to wire the lights, it should be done.

    The third brake light, as much as it was derided when it was mandated (and as ugly as it is on many cars) has nonetheless prevented about 200,000 crashes and saved about $600 million in damage. In raw dollars and cents, more than 3 dollars saved for each dollar spent to install them for all cars. Since a wrecked Ferrari is about the same amount of money... even saving a few crashes for F cars through more brake light illumination should be sought if there is a way to simply rewire what's already there.

    Bob H
     
  17. hotbmwm3

    hotbmwm3 Formula Junior

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    Thanks for the background on "rigid"

    In Australian law, when it's drafted properly, it will often have a preamble that describes the intent and meanings if important terms

    In fact most good commercial contracts have them as well

    It's surprising it's not done more often as it allows much less wiggle room

    My favourite wiggle statement will always be

    "It depends on the definition of what IS is"
     
  18. MarkCollins

    MarkCollins F1 Rookie
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    Jul 2, 2002
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    Mark Collins
    The more I look at the design it's pretty clear the original intention was for the brake lights to be at the top and (in EU) the fog lights at the lower level

    I had a brief look at the wiring to the current brake lights and oddly the wiring appears from another direction and not via a multiway plug to the light fitting, I'll investigate further as soon as I can spend some time with the car away from freezing temps :)
     
  19. SVCalifornia

    SVCalifornia Formula 3
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    Mar 28, 2011
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    Keith
    Actually I'd like to have the 458 lights instead of what is on the Cali...

    SV
     
  20. hotbmwm3

    hotbmwm3 Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2006
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    Thanks mark
     
  21. hotbmwm3

    hotbmwm3 Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2006
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    Yep, me too , but given the price if Ferrari spare parts I'm guessing it would be really expensive

    I wonder if they are the same size?

    Can anyone lucky enough to have both a 458 and a Cali in their garage have a quick look to see if the sizes look the same
     
  22. 09Scuderia

    09Scuderia Formula 3

    Nov 20, 2011
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    Max
    Very cool.
     
  23. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

    Feb 24, 2007
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    SV has both....
     
  24. hotbmwm3

    hotbmwm3 Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2006
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    Lol, then the search for that person seems to have ended before it began

    Do they have the same outside diameter?

    Whatever the solution we come up with I think the new round brake lights should have LED bulbs to give an up to date look
     
  25. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    See my thread about a possible approach to adding functionality to the trunk lid lights which I think will work.
     

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