Yes winning 6 world championships builds up to the point which is not comparable to winning one Monaco GP (JPM). Let us not forget, MS has won at Monaco several times too.
I agree with you when it comes to MS' status, but I think JPM gets an unfair treatment on this forum. He hasn't lived up to the media hype and makes mistakes, no question. But putting him significantly lower than Sato? I smell bias.
As long as Michael exists in F1, there will always be the "rest". RB may be talented enought to have been given the honor of #2 driver, but is clearly not the best of the rest. Average is a good description of his driving ability. The sport is in a nice spot now with MS adding to an epic career and the rest fighting for who will be next once he retires. Sit back and take it all in so you can say " I remember seeing him win". The average drivers will be long forgotten.
The what? Kimi and Alonso are NOT in the same class as MS. And Alonso is consistently beat by his teammate, Jarno Trulli! Being 2nd to MS says nothing negative; being 2nd to JT is not too flattering. So, if you are arguing that up-and-coming drivers like Kimi and Alonso have more raw talent than RB and are more likely to become the "next WDC", then that is reasonable. But if I owned a team and needed to win this year, I'd take RB over Alonso in a heartbeat. Asserting that Alonso has in any way proven himself to be superior to RB is crazy talk.
Putting Alonso and Kimi into MS' class was probably a bid bold, I agree. So make MS an eleven and Kimi and Alonso a 10. Alonso gets beaten by a team mate who has been in the game for years and dozens of races. Give him a couple more years and he'll be WC. Kimi is already there if he had a better car and not MS to fight. Rubens is 2nd class and would only make a WC if something happens to MS.
There shall be no 11's and 12's and 13's on the holy scale of 1 to 10. It is like benchmarking. Don't change the marking scheme in the middle of the game.
OK, how about that: 10 - multiple WC - Michael 9 single WC - Villeneuve 8 future WC - Kimi, Alonso 7 winners - Rubens, DC, Trulli, Ralf 6 crazy winners - JPM 5-2 also runs - Sato, Fisico 1 loosers - Massa, Klien, Baumgartner
RB is a solid driver.. MS just knows how to deliver under pressure by putting in his trademark magic laps just b4 a pitstop.
yes yes the above would be my scoring without my personal bias against Juan the Idiot Pablo Montoya. So you are pretty good. But make two changes. Rubens moves to 8... JPM goes to 5. But we are in the same ball park.
We agree? I'm shocked. Actually the scale could be refined a bit: 10 - multiple WC legend style - Michael, Fangio, Senna, Prost 9 multiple WC - Hakkinen, Fittipaldi 8 single WC - Villeneuve 7 future WC - Kimi, Alonso 6 multiple winners - Rubens, DC, Ralf 5 single winners - Trulli, Panis 4 future winners - Button 3 potential winners - Webber 2 also runs - Da Matta 1 loosers - Massa, Klien, Baumgartner Also I'm not sure anybody in F1 could be described as a looser. Not knowing much about these guys, I bet their lifestyle is a lot more fun and cooler than mine.
That's pretty good scale. I just think "future WC" is a bit bold... too much of a prediction than a status. How about we change that to "WC contender"... IOW, someone who could put together enough wins in a season to win the big prize. And in that case, I think RB fits in that class. 10 - multiple WCs legend - Michael, Fangio, Senna, Prost 9 multiple WCs - Hakkinen, Fittipaldi 8 single WC - Villeneuve 7 WC contender - Kimi, Alonso, Rubens 6 multiple GPs - DC, Ralf 5 single GPs - Trulli, Panis 4 GP contender - Button 3 potential GP winner - Webber 2 also-rans - Da Matta 1 lucky-to-be-here - Massa, Klien, Baumgartner
Fully agree, your changes made it actually pretty reasonable and less argumentative. I admit I'm totally biased when it comes to Alonso and Kimi. They both remind me of that youngster in a green Seven-up Jordan in Spa...
Yet I notice the problematic JPM is not in that list. Based on his performance in the WDC chase over the past 3 years, he's easily in the 7 category
Hold on a minute. How can you have a scale based purely on results. In that scale Moss would be what? A 7? The same for Gilles Villeneuve? And is Panis really better than, say, Chris Amon because he won one GP (when everyone else of note had dropped out) but Amon didn't. Ralf has won more GPs than Keke Rosberg but Rosberg won a championship (in a year when he only won one race). So is Rosberg an 8 and Ralf a 6? And I haven't even started on Nuvolari, Carraciola, Rosemeyer and the like who raced before there was a World Championship!
Because results are all that matters in car racing. All the rest is nice conversation fodder, but winning is everything and second place is simply the first loser.
Andreas/tifosi12 and Brian, We have done well. this matter of JPM and RB is a debate that only time will tell I propose a neutral 7.5 for JPM and RB... We shall call it the 7.5 Wild Cards. One of whom is an idiot (JPM) the other is a professional (RB)
You do have a point. Actually while I was putting that scale together I was wondering where I would put Gilles Villeneuve, who would deserve more than a 7. Also Rosberg came to my mind, who got away with a "free" WC. Nothing is perfect.
But any driver of true AVERAGE ability would be able to do what RB is doing this year. Note Brian I am not saying RB is useless I am saying he is just average, like DC. DC in many years has done a great number 2 job, but scoring points because your car is good does not make you more than average. Remember 90% of the grid of F1 are actually average drivers (for F1) and thus bloody good drivers for any other level. I believe Senna used all the pedals all the time. I remember Brundle (I think) saying he was passed by Senna when testing and somehow he could see Senn's legs and they were all over the place, pumping this and that, balancing the car, etc. Now LFB'ing is a relatively new thing to F1, say in the last 10 years it has become much bigger, thanks to the paddle shifts and the removal of the clutch pedal. Now you are a F1 driver and the computers tell you VERY clearly that LFB'ing is an advantage and you DON'T use it!. Come on if somebody told me that chopping my little toe off would gain 0.25 of a second per lap it would be off in 3 seconds ... if I was at that level. **** I would have thought seriously about chopping it off when I was a club racer. You don't ignore performance advantages like that ... not if you are serious. Yes there is. It was bloody hard to left foot brake and change gear with a clutch in the older cars ... thus drivers that LFB'ed had to use their right foot, and control both the accelator and brake. Now with only 2 pedals it is a piece of cake. RB is brilliant in gokarts ... guess what, 100% left foot braking! I am saying RB is an average driver because he is not hunting out every advantage he can. What do you think makes MS (and Senna) so good?. The answer is because the guy is ALWAYS looking for that gain ... never rests always trying to be faster. RB is not he (like Irvine used to) is waiting for the race wins to come to him ... that does not happen. Agree, but this is what I read in a magazine and I guess should have just treated it as BS. Instead I thought there might have been a little truth in it. You guys have well and truly corrected me on that In conclusion taking the definition of the word "average", RB is looking very average this year. He is driving the best F1 car and getting the results that any average F1 driver could get. Do you honestly think that DC (for example) could not get exactly the same results. We all know DC has done it just the same as RB in the past ... and we all know that DC is average. Thus Brian I know you like RB, but try and watch a race with out the RB rose tinted glasses on and come back and tell me why RB is not average. Again I am not saying he is useless, just average. Above average drivers do not become permanent number 2's ... they are snapped up as future WC's ... Ferrari choose RB because they needed a number 2, not a star ... RB has had his time and chances as much as anyone in F1. I personally think he made a bad choice accepting the number 2 drive at Ferrari. Up until that point he was perceived as a rising star, but come on he must have realised that he was always going to be number 2 at Ferrari and never given a chance. All he had to do is remmber Irvines time at Ferrari. And I can hear you all saying now: Being number 2 at Ferrari is better than being number 1 elsewhere. Well in some ways you are right, but a REAL racing driver does not accept being number 2, unless they are just starting out. They are ego maniacs and really in the head believe that they are faster than any and everybody. They accept that number 2 role in the first year to destroy their team mate and really start their F1 career. A really racing driver does not sign on as a permanent number 2. Lets list the drivers that have done that knowingly: Coulthard. Berger. Irvine. Rubins Barrichello. Thus look at his class mates ... all average F1 drivers. Rubins knowingly killed his asperations in career growth by choosing that number 2 role at Ferrari. He knew exactly what he was getting, and he demonstrated to every one on the grid that he does not have the fire burning hard enough in his guts ... by impotently allowing MS to win that Austrian GP on team orders he also showed that the fire is not hard enough. Can you imagine Senna doing that ... no way. I would not even have done that, I would have accidentally won the race and taken Todt, Brawn and MS aside after the race in the motor home and quite clearly told them that I would play the team game and all but there is no fncken way in living hell that I will give up a win after dominating MS all weekend with the championship wide open in the middle of a season. Thus that same attitude of accepting defeat is the same attitude RB has when ever a tight racing situation comes up in a race. Basically the guy trying to pass him mentally knows that he has already won the battle, he knows that when push comes to shove RB will impotentially give in, because he has clearly demonstrated this to the entire F1 community. Compare that to Kimi, JPM and MS ... look at Kimi fight MS at Australia last year. He knew that MS would eventually get him, but he was going to make it as hard as fncken possible. Why?, because he was showing the rest of the world that he is no push over, and he was showing it against the current WC no less. JPM has constantly tried to do the same ... er, not as intelligently though. One of the reasons MS can pass in F1, which others struggle with, is simply when he appears in their mirrors the drivers know that he is hungry, they know that he is very likely to have a go. This puts them instantly at a mental defensive. Senna used the same tactic over and over again ... Prost didn't and thus took longer to pass. For all those reasons RB is a great driver but average, and I used all the same reasoning when I used to judge drivers I used to race against. I very quickly worked out which drivers to worry about and which were not really in to it. The whole F1 grid know exactly where RB is ... and they are not worried about him, and won't be even if MS retired at the end of this season. Remember though that all of this is just my opinion Pete
Ok since you brought up this whole team orders debate. I am going to beat down your own arguement. So in the Austrian GP... he dominated the whole weekend. He dominated perhaps one of the best if not the best driver F1 has ever seen. Yes, that is right RB dominated 6 times world champion M. Schumacher. So rubens should have won. So rubens is more than average. He showed how he can stay ahead of Michael all weekend. Rubens is much above average because he is the only guy who can keep up with MS for more than just one race consistently unlike pther falsh in the pan drivers like J. Trulli or Alonso or Kimi. The only reason he does not qualify very high up in qualifications is because he chooses a different startegy. Ususally heavy on fuel with 2 pit stops. So since he can run and stay closer to MS than anyone in the rest of F1 he is atleast good if not very good.
Yes on that day he definitely was. Even DC has had his days. One brilliant race does not make him above average in my book. Remember Average means that you might have a brilliant day but that is balanced out by a **** day ... thus overall you are just average. Every F1 driver is good ... otherwise they would not be there for 5 seconds. Even JPM is a good driver he is just not WC material. We have not seen every other driver in the same car as MS. Remember Irvine used to be able to stay just as close as RB does to MS ... and Irvine was hardly brilliant or even a good F1 driver. Irvine even out qualified MS a few times ... Pete
Lets use Wax's handy post to explain why RB is average. As Wax pointed out RB has finished: 2nd 4th 2nd 5th 2nd 3rd 2nd Thus 4 times out of 7 he has finished above the rest of the field. 3 times out of 7 he has finished behind somebody else. Who else is racing this season?. We have the ever improving BAR, Williams (ocassionally performing good) and Renault doing well. All other teams are fncked. Thus out of all the cars that start RB only really is racing against 7 other drivers including MS, because the other drivers do not stand a chance. Thus almost half of the time he has been between by one or more of the following drivers driving inferior equipment: Trulli, Alonso, JPM, RS, Button or Sato. Out of those drivers none of us really respect JPM or RS ... and I don't think Trulli is great either, and most of you rate Sato lowly (though I myself think he is doing great for a new comer ...). Thus take those drivers away and we are now saying that RB is getting beaten by the likes of Alonso in a Renault and Button in a BAR. Now if the cars were even I would say yep RB is doing okay, but the cars are not even. RB's Ferrari is heaps faster than the Renaults and BARs in race trim ... thus RB is UNDERPERFORMING when he does not finish 2nd to MS. And he has NOT finished 2nd in approximately half the races ... thus by the law of averages RB is average this season. Pete
