Racing Simulators

Hi Dan,

Well, I quess it all depends what you want out of a sim experience vs how buch you can spend on scratching the itch. You can spend a lot!

Search on 'GT4 sim', and you should find a bunch us who have made seats/cockpits and put time in that particular game. Forza also is popular, in the same vein, although I have not personally played it.

I have a PS2/GT4 & a Logitech force feedback wheel and a custom seat frame, and found it very useful prior to bombing around Sears Point in the real world. Modeled to an inch or so supposedly, and seemed like it in comparison.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56943
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88756

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49539

Cheers,
Jon

 

I like Forza a lot more...Forza 2 is coming out soon though, and thats supposed to blow the socks off of any simulator. So you can wait until March if you want?

 

I'm typing next to my Logitech Momo right now and I would recommend it. It has a profiler program that allows you to assign functions for each of the 6 wheel buttons and has sequential and paddle shift controls. I use it on EA's F1 2001 and CART Precision Racing.

For F1, my buttons are labled and assigned to control pit lane speed limit, traction control, Pi display pages and other parameters. My sequential level is set for brake bias. It is alot to keep track of while driving but you get used to it. I'm running a full season and after 3 races at 100% strength I'm 2nd in the Championship.

Has it helped my on track driving? Sims do help your hand/eye fundamentals but the physical aspect of being tossed around in a cockpit can only be developed in a real car.

 

I agree with Jonathan, the sims are good for learning track layouts and lines, but todays sims really lack the feel of the tires on the road talking to you.

They are not without merit for the beginner though, and are fun when it's snowing out.

 

I've completed over fifty percent of Forza and already have Forza 2 on reserve. I don't do any real life tracking of my car, but I'm pretty happy with the response I get from the Forza games. I should be getting a wheel soon and plan on building a nice little setup to race in.

I've also heard that GTR2 is supposed to be the 'be all end all' racing sim, but I don't play many games on PC I mainly stick to console, so I dunno about that. Hopefully Andreas will chime in soon, I know he's pretty hardcore into racing sims.

 

I've never seen a sim -- car or flight -- that compares to the real thing.

For snow, I prescribe an old Escort or Abarth and a rally.
(Nothing teaches driving "at the limits" like driving where the limits are 40 mph. )

Let's not relegate motorsports to the "cyber" world.

 

Agreed!

Below is basically a cut and past of a posting i did in another fourm concerning video gaming.

While video games and fun and all... and do play them for about 5 hours a month... If the software has enough tracks it at least allows one to see the basic rhythm of a circuit.


WARNING: Semi-Adult Stuff Below
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Though in the end video games remind me of when i was about 14 years old, alone, and in my bedroom with a magazine. Sure it all worked out ok, but it really was almost nothing like the real thing. With video games you have no real interaction, there is no feeling of the G... forces, etc. While the better video games do have some fairly good simulation/stimulation, they are still not quite like actually 'driving it home' when it comes to motion dynamics, etc.

But like my bedroom, it at least gets you primed and see the curves and angles and some basics. REAL interaction with the REAL thing takes more finesse, more work, and other variables too numerous to mention.

Just my humble 2 Yen. Your milage, and relationships with cars/lovers may vary.

My apologies if the above is a bit... though that is how i see it and relate the two. i'd rather be doing the real thing, as often as possible, and on as many tracks as possible

 

Yes, sims can help you with real racing. You can learn the track and you can hone your reflexes. Before our annual kart race I practice a lot in the sim just to make sure those synapses get a workout. Obviously you can't simulate G forces (although some elaborate sims can do just that and they do exist). But it is not true that you can't feel the car or the tires. The clues (visual, sound, forcefeedback) are all there, you just have to learn to read them.

GTR2 is superb.


I don't know the G25 wheel, but can attest that the Logitech momo wheel is excellent and gives you enough force feedback.

Books have been written about the relationship/crossover from virtual to real racing/flying and modern F1 drivers or Airforce pilot wouldn't be using sims to train if there wasn't a point in it.

 

Absolutely! I use simulations all the time in coaching professional drivers and amateurs as well as to learn new tracks and hone my own hand/eye coordination, in-season and off-season.

GTR2 is the best "simulation" right now, but Bob Earl and Ross Bentley use GT4 to teach Laguna and I've used Forza to teach Road Atlanta, Road America and others.

As far as the consoles go (much easier and shorter learning curve), the physics of GT4 on Sony PS2 is still the standard. While Forza and PGR3 have arguably better "eye candy", the way the car behaves and responds to changes is much more true to life in GT4 than in the XBox and XBox 360 game physics.

The reason why GTR2 is so good is that if you are experienced, patient, dedicated and competent, you can "log" and later "interpret" the data through MoTeC's excellent i2 software well enough to objectively weigh the benefits or drawbacks of various chassis changes. You've got to reach a basic level of competency first, but it's remarkable how accurate a "model" you can create with this simulation.

That's why these things are "simulations" rather than "games"...

Steve, you better get going on the PS2 to be able to assimilate the changes going from a 3400 lb 308 to your 1000 lb Continental! <grin> Honest, it helps. We have plenty of data to support that. Just look at the F1 teams... Now, Cup teams are beginning to use these simulations. I was online with Junior the other week and with GP2 driver Ryan Sharp a couple months ago. They both kicked my a$$! <very big grin>

-Peter

 

FYI. Try the Logitech Driving Force Pro. It also has a 900 degree rotation lock to lock. It's been out for a while so you can probably find it cheap somewhere.

It is sold as a PS2 wheel however, an unadvertised 'feature' is that it will work on a PC. The Logitech PC software actually recognizes it and allows you to use the 900 degree rotation on pretty much all the major games.

If you are really serious about simulators, or just have a lot of money, get the simulator cockpit from Force Dynamics. http://www.force-dynamics.com/

 

The logitech wheels are the best wheels for your dollar. I have the Driving Force Pro now, and its very good. Had the Momo before (black, there is a rather rare special edition wheel that is red with real leather and stuff) and it was also awesome. Sold it on ebay when the DFP came out. Like you said, the G25 looks awesome. The H shifter, clutch pedal, nicer pedals, better quality materials, better Force Feedback thanks to two motors are all reasons that it costs around $200 on ebay. Still too expensive for me to upgrade.

As far as games go, I cannot recommend Live for Speed enough. While it doesn't offer real life tracks or cars (except for the BMW Sauber F1 and a couple obscure cars) it does off better physics than anything else out there. It is continuously developed by a very small team. 1 coder, 1 graphics guy, and a website guy. So, you wont be able to drive your car, or drive your local tracks, but it is the best of the best in physics and online play.

There is a free demo that allows you unlimited play (online and off) with 3 cars on one track and a rally cross track. Check it out, you wont regret it.

 

rFactor is good, too. There is a downloadable version of Barber Motorsports Park that had even the track owner ga-ga! Tommy Cosgrove and Mike Charness need that! <grin>

I love my old Logitech Formula Force Red and my Logitech Momo Formula Force, but I'll be buying a G25 soon...

-Peter

 

I have both GT4 and Forza and both have some extent of eye candy. GT4 does not have the damage factor that Forza does. GT4 also doesnt have the Ferraris that Forza does...which was a big factor for me.

I could see both being excellent teachers for the track. I have never driven a real track, but feel like I would have a clue what to look for at Laguna, Road Atlanta, or even the Nurburgring if/when I have those opportunities.

I use a steering wheel with force feedback and while it isnt quite like the real thing you do get an idea of whats going on with the car...unless you are airborne of course.

I still can work up a sweat running 10 or 12 laps at the Nurburgring on these simulators. I can even switch cars pretty much at will giving me a completely different feel from one car to the next.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.

Patrick

 

+1!

Patrick, when you say "I would have a clue what to look for at Laguna, Road Atlanta, or even the Nurburgring if/when I have those opportunities," that is why these things are valuable for everyone from a rank novice (no track experience) to professionals who want to learn at least which way the road goes over the next blind brow!

When you have top-level, pro drivers from sports cars to F1 learning tracks they haven't been to before on F1 Challenge '99-'02 or some of the better console games, and you have JPM learning ovals and drafting techniques from some of the better PC Cup sims (yes, he's online, too), there is clearly a benefit to using them.

-Peter

 

Peter -

Not only am I a track novice but can you believe I haven't played a video game since the days of Pong and Tank from Atari.

What should I buy?

 

Stop by and I'll overwhelm you with choices, G!

-Peter

 

rFactor is the basis of GTR2 (ISI produced rFactor and SimBin bought the physics engine from ISI for their GTR and GTR2 games) although they have heavily modified it. ISI are the developers responsible for EA's F1-2002 and F1-Challenge games (last none Sony F1 games).

The advantage of rFactor is that its designed to be modified by anyone, hence once you have paid your &#163;30 to register you can virtually (pardon the pun) drive anything, anywhere.

For example, today (Dec 23rd) saw the release of the "F1 1979 mod" for rFactor - all the cars and circuits of the 1979 F1 season modelled extremely well, both in looks, physics and sound....and its a free download!

Logitech wheels are the best high street option. The old Wingman Formula Force had an Immersion Force Feedback system based on wires and pulleys which provides excellent feel, particularly if you add a Jens Schumacher (no relation) precision bearing kit. DFP's are good although clunky (cog driven FF) and they together with the G25 offer 900 degree mode, 900deg is actually pointless but configuring the wheel for 360deg lock to lock provides enough steering lock to properly control oversteer without hitting the stops which you would do with a conventional 180 degree wheel.

If you spend long enough in front of the screen you will "feel" G-forces, its just the senses that convey them are optical rather than posterial

 

Too bad Jens' mod is done... It works great!

Yes, Richard, nothing like heading down the Craner curves in the wet on the edge of "virtual" adhesion, in anything, right? <very big grin>

-Peter

 

F1 1979 for rFactor here: http://www.rfactorcentral.com/series_detail.cfm?ID=Grand%20Prix%201979

 

Indeedy - Jens has moved back to Germany, but his "bits" are so hard wearing I doubt I'll need spares...when I get some free time I'm going to try to get 300deg + rotation out of the WMFF. I think its possible but needs a bit of head scratching regarding the ratios of those pulleys ... and a few TWANGGGGG's

Just downloaded the 1979 mod, off to the Nordschleife later with Gilles 312, sounds MEGA.

 

NOTE: Its a 2 file download, the mod and the tracks...

Filenames: GP79_v10.rar and GP79_tpv10.rar

If you need rFactor thats a download too

www.rfactor.net

Once installed you can pay the registration fee online then apply the 1979 mod.

 

It is one of my goals in life to once drive the Ring. Given the fact how many people die there each year, I was very intimidated. But now I have played countless hours on it using GT4 and I'm pretty sure I have a good idea of what's ahead.

 

But watch out for the 'bikers lying in the middle of the track, on the line, just over that 80mph blind crest they fell off just before....