430 - Quick Poll, has anyone had cracked Scud or Challenge headers? | FerrariChat
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430 Quick Poll, has anyone had cracked Scud or Challenge headers?

Discussion in '360/430' started by CoreyNJ, Dec 20, 2022.

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  1. CoreyNJ

    CoreyNJ Formula 3
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    #1 CoreyNJ, Dec 20, 2022
    With the Capristo exhaust mount thread coming back up, I was sitting on a boring conference call today and was wondering if the issue with cracked OEM headers has to do more with the pre-cats heating up the F430 OEM headers/manifolds and causing metal fatigue combined with the rear brackets rigidly holding the exhaust vs the brackets on their own. This could be why aftermarket headers don't seem to have the same issue.

    I was also looking at pictures of the factory cat setup and there is a spring/bolt combo that seems to allow expansion between the main-cats and the headers/manifolds, so Ferrari may have allowed for some expansion but not the continued internal heat cycling and expansion/contraction in the OEM F430 headers with the pre-cats.

    So has anyone with Ferrari OEM "cat-less" headers/manifolds experienced cracked headers (Scud and Challenge headers)?
     
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  2. colorfull

    colorfull Formula 3
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    #2 colorfull, Dec 20, 2022
    Interesting theory
     
  3. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
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    #3 one4torque, Dec 20, 2022
    360 manifolds have cat in them..... but are 360 manifolds known to crack as frequent as Mark 1 f430 headers????
     
  4. CoreyNJ

    CoreyNJ Formula 3
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    #4 CoreyNJ, Dec 20, 2022
    Doesn't the 360 in the states have air injection on the manifolds? So that would be a very different setup than the F430.
     
  5. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

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    #5 24000rpm, Dec 20, 2022
    I gutted my precat.
    I removed altogther the bracket that hangs exhaust tip.
    I fixed my OEM header by welding it up.

    It still cracks after a few thousand km.

    I re-opened the header, and the welder said " do not weld this metal any more. It is beyond fatigue. need to replace this portion of the tube"

    replaced about a few inches of tube, all good until today, 10,000 kms later.
     
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  6. CoreyNJ

    CoreyNJ Formula 3
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    #6 CoreyNJ, Dec 21, 2022
    Did you open them up to fix the tube the first time and gut the pre-cat at the same time?

    That specific tube could have been bad from the pre-cat heat cycling and your most recent repair which replaced that tube with a new tube never experienced the pre-cat heat.

    I would have expected based on all the postings here that removing the rear brackets after your 1st repair would have prevented the re-cracking of the manifold tube unless it was compromised before all the work you did on the header/manifolds (i.e. welding, gutting the pre-cat and removing the rear brackets)
     
  7. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

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    #7 24000rpm, Dec 21, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2022
    the first time I opened up the header, I gut the precat and weld the crack. My welder only told me "its beyond fatigue" when I opened up the header the 2nd time.

    didn't get what you mean by "That specific tube could have been bad from the pre-cat heat cycling and your most recent repair which replaced that tube with a new tube never experienced the pre-cat heat."

    yes, the tube was compromised ( aka beyond fatigue) BEFORE I did my first repair (welding). The welder should have told me this while I opened up the header the 1st time.




     
  8. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

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    #8 mwstewart, Dec 21, 2022
    Usually the flange(s) warp. They don't tend to crack.
     
  9. kenneyd

    kenneyd Formula 3

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    #9 kenneyd, Dec 21, 2022
    I compared my 2007 headers vs challenge headers, there are a few extra welds and some extra material on the challenge headers.
    The extra flow, reduced pressure, less heat from a glowing orange cat inside the header all contribute to a reliable header.
     
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  10. one4torque

    one4torque F1 Veteran
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    #10 one4torque, Dec 21, 2022
    360 cat headers may not crack like the f430 due to less power, fuel, heat. Guessing.
     
  11. craze

    craze Formula 3
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    #11 craze, Dec 21, 2022
    The slip join on f430 near where the muffler clamps on I can see on mine marks 10-20mm long where is expands and contracts and slides in etc, im not sure if this is intentional as there is a clamp there??

    I used to get cracking noises after hard drives, i found it was bests to preload the brackets (the U clamps that mount to transmission) by pushing them 10MM towards front of the car, this means when it does expand and extend in length due to heat, that it has a bit more room to move
    Since that no more noises from exhaust
     
  12. RedTaxi

    RedTaxi F1 Rookie
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    #12 RedTaxi, Dec 22, 2022
    Nope. Because 360's don't have the stupid rigid lower rear brackets.
     
  13. CoreyNJ

    CoreyNJ Formula 3
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    #13 CoreyNJ, Dec 22, 2022
    Right, and my point of this thread was maybe the combination of rear brackets and the heat caused by the pre-cat is a perfect storm for the header cracking. There seems to be some expansion that is allowed in the F430 exhaust even with the lower brackets, but the pre-cat just may cause that expansion to be too much when combined with the vibration of a flat-plane crank engine and lower brackets. The other problem with the OEM lower brackets is that they are in an area that will get some moisture if you drive in the rain or simply wash your car and with the really crappy welds and design, the welds will rust and fail from the stress and vibration. I have yet to see a set of OEM lower brackets without rust after a few months.
     
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  14. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

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    #14 mwstewart, Dec 22, 2022
    That shouldn't happen, but if you still have the solid rear brackets then it's a bonus for you. I'm surprised that you don't have a lot of resonance/boominess and extra vibration as the resonant length of the exhaust has changed if it isn't clamped together securely.
     
  15. kenneyd

    kenneyd Formula 3

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    #15 kenneyd, Dec 23, 2022
    I noticed the slip joint between the cart and the stock muffler on the passenger shows evidence of quite a bit of expansion.

    On the driver's side, the bracket simply broke.

    Everyone needs to remove these brackets
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