Question regarding Ferrari 2-piece Titanium Wheel Bolts

I've had both kinds on my Ferraris - one piece and two piece. The two piece design is definitely a lot nicer.

Here is an old ad from when I sold the ones off my 458/488:

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ferrari-factory-titanium-wheel-lug-nut-bolts-for-458-488-california-etc.589881

They are hot forged typically. Usually the allen head is hot forged via a stamping / forging process. The threads are generally rolled, which improves the strength as that is its own forging process. Unless something has changed over the last 20 years, this is the company that makes them for Ferrari:

https://www.poggipolini.it/en/hot-fast-forging.html

The weight savings is maybe a pound [total] or so per wheel. I'm not sure I ever weighed any of the lug bolts in grams to find out the exact difference, but the old Ferrari chrome bolts are pretty darn heavy. As far as strength of steel vs. titanium, you have to get into the specific alloy of each material to answer that question. The short answer is "it's usually pretty similar". A lot has to do with the hardening process of steel and also the carbon content, etc. Titanium usually is nearly as strong as most good steels, but sometimes it is slightly weaker than the very, very best steels. Would I build a backhoe using Titanium bolts? Probably not. But in a situation where you have five bolts holding on a car wheel, it's plenty strong for that application.

I have used a lot of titanium hardware on my cars and motorcycle over the years. Usually it's best suited in areas where corrosion is some factor and/or where weight savings is super important. I also like using it for exhaust fixing hardware (because it's great when heat cycling is involved). Also in areas where it might come into contact with moisture or coolant. For most areas, it's plenty strong.

As far as weight savings in this specific case: you have to take into account that with your Ferrari lug bolts, they are very close to the rotational axis of the wheel; therefore, the moment of inertia (MOI) benefits are gonna be limited. The reason for that has to do with the formula used to calculate MOI; it uses the square of the distance from the rotational axis (if I'm recalling the math correctly). In other words, the farther away from the rotational axis the weight savings occurs, then the exponentially better the benefit will be. The closer to the rational axis, the less difference it will make. There is also some unsprung weight savings; but again, relative to the overall weight of the other unsprung components (i.e. the wheels and tires), it's pretty minimal.

So the main benefits are:

1. they look cool
2. they never chip or rust
3. removing and installing them via the internal allen key is a lot safer for your wheels (in the lug bolt area of the rim)

If it makes you feel any better, even if you combined Titanium wheel lugs with full carbon fiber rims (and the lightest weight rubber tires available), you probably aren't going to notice a whole lot of difference on the street (except maybe when going over bumps in the road, as the lighter weight allows the suspension to respond a lot faster). I've run carbon fiber rims on my motorcycle (where that sort of weight savings is very noticeable) and even then it was barely noticeable outside of the race track. Yes, you can tell the difference to some degree, but by and large, it's hard to detect. Let me put it like this: if someone secretly swapped your Ferrari wheels for carbon fiber wheels without you knowing, and then you drove down town to go have lunch, chances are high you wouldn't even realize anything had changed. So changing just the wheel lug bolts over to Titanium is really not going to be noticeable

Just consider it jewelry for your car and you'll be plenty happy with how great they look

Ray


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Here are some additional photos I had on my hard drive.

Ray

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Yes, yes and no.

 

Safer as far as the outside socket not hitting the paint on the wheel.

Ray

 

Who makes 2pc Allen head lugs in the aftermarket?

 

love the look

 

Yes ti bolts are a bit stronger
Yes they are lighter
They are milled from cast ti
Will you notice it from the drivers seat? Absolutely not.

I think most here know that I'm a stickler for light weight wheels, and while ti bolts save a bit of weight, it is in the wrong area. The closer you get to the center the less it matters.

Get the ti bolts from Hill. Better looking, cheaper, and forged from billet ti. Much better quality.

Remember to tighten them properly. 100nm is just asking for trouble. 120 if you granny the car, and 135 if not.

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Weight savings are not huge. About 200 grams per wheel. Weighted them in the spring, but don't recall the actual weights.

 

Usually Titanium is a bit weaker than steel, although typically not much enough to make a difference. It's strong only when considering the equivalent strength vs. weight of most steels.

The wheel bolts are noticeably lighter, but as Co-Pilota says, you aren't going to notice it while driving - at all.

Good quality Titanium lug bolts are forged, not cast. The threads are rolled, which is a secondary forging process to some degree. I'm not sure how raw Titanium is delivered from the foundry, but steel is usually in the form or a wire rod, which is then further forged into bolts.

The Ti bolts sold on ebay might be cast and CNC milled, but usually the Ferrari stuff is not. Some cheap Titanium hardware has cut threads, but I would avoid those. In the Titanium stuff I have used over the years, rolled threads are vastly superior to CNC cut threads (usually threads which are cut exhibit some level of galling under microscopic inspection). Personally, I only use threads which have been rolled.

I have always torqued the lug nuts to 100 Nm and never had any issues. You want to make sure to install them dry (i.e. without any anti-seize) however. Personally I wouldn't go much beyond 110 Nm.

Ray

 

Are the OEM Ferrari Titanium bolts cast or forged.. I'm bidding on a set on Ebay from a private seller which are genuine Ferrari ones.. Don't know much about them however i hate the bright chrome ones on my 488 which have Grigio painted forged rims. Another big bonus is as the Ti ones have a 17mm allen key release which reduces the risk of damage to the wheels.

 

I have a relative whom is a metallurgical engineer, and I asked him to compare the OE and Hill bolts. Per his findings, the OE bolts are machined from cast bar stock and the Hill bolts are milled from a billet. He was,adament that the Hill bolts was of a significantly better quality.

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"who is a metallurgical engineer", not whom. You're in the nominative case there, not the objective.



My guess is the OEM Ferrari Titanium bolts are merely being rebranded and are still being made by Poggipolini in Italy. I could be wrong, but that's my guess. Hill Engineering, of course, makes fantastic parts and has a great reputation (I have used a number of their parts over the years and their quality speaks for itself). I don't know if they are making their own Ti lug bolts, but based on their website, it sort of sounds like they might be.

I'm not an expert in Titanium by any means, but I do know it has to be cast in a vacuum (or it will catch on fire) - if any sort of casting is involved. I did a little checking and from what I can find, the standard production method for making Titanium yields something called a sponge, which is the result of a chemical reaction. This Titanium sponge material is then refined a bit and the Titanium is forged into an ingot (sort of like what you see when they make knives on that TV show Forged in Fire). I would gather that most Titanium parts are machined from these ingots, sheets, bars, etc. Here's a really great video that shows part of the process:



Given the additional steps required for vacuum cast Titanium, it doesn't make a lot of sense that anyone would include that more costly step in production, when it's just cheaper and easier to start with a bar of Titanium right from the foundry / mill.

With that said, keep in mind that Billet is merely a term to indicate that something is milled out of a block of something. The starting point can be anything - cast or not. So saying one is machined from a cast bar, while the other is "from a billet" is sort of like saying one is made from wood and the other is made from carving a tree. The important questions here relate more to the grade of Titanium used, any grain structures induced from any of the production processes, the heat treatment and the ultimate processes used to form or cut the final threads and dimensions. For example, if Hill bolts are "milled" from a block, as you say, does that mean they are cutting their threads using a die or some CNC operation - such as single point cutting on a lathe? If so, that's fine - but once again, in a lot of cases, hot or cold rolled threads tend to be superior strength. The Titanium bolts I use come from a company in the UK (and sometimes one in Russia) and they all use forge / rolled threads as far as I know. So is that what Hill is doing as well? That would be an important question to know the answer to.

Also, you mentioned "per his findings". What method exactly was used to arrive at these findings? Was this all based on just looking at pictures online? Making telephone calls to the companies involved? Ordering both bolts and cutting them in half and examining the grain structure under an electron scanning microscope? What's the story?

Whatever the case, I think it would be great to get to the bottom of all this. It would be great to learn more about Titanium and how these parts are made and what the pros and cons all are. Like I say, I'm no expert when it comes to Titanium bolts, so I would like to know more about every detail involved here.

Ray

 

Here's another sort of interesting video - and I believe they are using Titanium as their starting point here:



Ray

 

Thanks for the grammar lesson Ray

Anyway, to clarify what was meant by billet in this context. Milled from an extruded bar which results in a different grain structure. I know a billet is just "a piece" but as you probably know, in such a context it usually means a rolled or extruded piece like when talking, cast vs. forged vs. billet cranks etc.

The Ferrari bolts had a grain structure that is the result of casting and the Hill bolts have a more uniform grain structure.

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Does anyone know anything about this companies Titanium 2pc wheels bolts? They size them for Ferrari too.

https://www.exoticcargear.com/product/ferrari-2-piece-titanium-wheel-bolts-finish/

 

Any time my friend!

It would be interesting to know if Ferrari is now making their Titanium lug bolts in-house or not. If I'm not mistaken, back when they started offering them as an option on the 360CS, they were made by Poggipolini. My recollection is that at the time Ferrari had licensed the allen head version of the bolts - and then to avoid licensing issues, Poggipolini turned around and started offering the same bolt, but a Torx style head. I ended up buying the Torx style bolts for my 360, because trying to obtain the hex head version sold on the 360CS was next to impossible back then.

If the information about the grain structure is correct, then that's very interesting.

Ray

 

I could be wrong, but I want to say those come from China. You might want to call Exotic Car Gear double check that.

Here's another company to check out:

http://wisdomtitanium.com/titanium-wheel-lug-bolts-c.html
http://wisdomtitanium.com/Technical.html

I believe they are located in Asia also, but their products seem to be very well made. I follow them on Instagram and some of their work looks really beautiful. If you check that 2nd link up there, it seems everything is produced via hot forging.

Ray

 

Thanks Ray, but this Wisdom bolts don’t not appear to be the newer style 2pc that Ferrari now specs.

 

Yes, they have the 2-piece style from what I can tell via their website.

Ray

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Ahh there they are! Lol...thanks Ray!

 

Ahh there they are! Lol...thanks Ray!

 

You got it!

Their stuff doesn't look half bad. I'd be real curious to see how it stacks up in person.

Check out their Instagram page here:

https://www.instagram.com/wisdomtitanium/

Everything they produce looks top notch to me. I think I actually might have their Titanium 12 point lug nuts on my pickup truck, although I purchased them on-line via another website. But they look identical and they are super high quality nuts.

Ray

 

I wonder how much they cost?


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20pcs cost $199
shipping cost $38 by dhl
Total $237

Pretty damn inexpensive.