Question on clutch wear on F1 transmission at traffic light

Opinion is divided on this subject, and the techs on the forum say that it doesn't really matter.

Force of habit from a lifetime of driving stick-shift conventional clutch systems, has conditioned me to shifting into neutral during expected lengthy delays, in order not to have the throw-out/thrust bearing engaged on the pressure plate for inordinate lengths of time.

Common sense tells me that this would be best practice, but no doubt there will be differing opinions.

 

I let mine to shift by itself from 1st to neutral at every stop.

 

The only wear you will have for leaving it in 1st would be the pressure plate.

 

always wondered as well....read lots of posts that say it doesnt matter!! leaving in first is ok no additional wear and tear on clutch....

However if that is so... isnt it true that if at a stop light for any length in first gear you get an audible beep and the car automatically shifts into neutral due to the clutch getting hot???

doesnt seem like no difference if that is the case...


I always click into neutral!!

 

The simple fact is that standing still in neutral or standing still in gear with the F1 makes no difference whatsoever to the clutch, throwout bearing or pressure plate. The clutch is completely disengaged in both cases and the throwout bearing is spinning in both cases. It's true that most manual transmissions only spin the throwout bearing when the clutch peddle is down (i.e., clutch disengaged) but the Ferrari F1 uses a so-called "full contact" TO bearing which is always spinning. There is no mechanical advantage or disadvantage to sitting still either way.

The F1 system only beeps and shifts itself into neutral while standing still if: (1) you sit still with foot firmly on the brake for more than 10 minutes, or (2) you sit still for more than 5 seconds with foot casually resting (i.e., not pressing sufficiently) on the brake or pressing on neither brake or gas. It has nothing to do with the clutch since the clutch is fully disengaged regardless.

There is a good reason (albeit non-mechanical) to sit still in gear rather than in neutral. It means you can get the car moving much more quickly if the need suddenly arises (e.g. emergency vehicle approaches, incident with nearby vehicle, approach of questionable people, etc.). Aside from this, it makes no difference to the car whether you sit still in gear or in neutral.

 

I am going to go out on a limb and still says that there is wear on the pressure plate. Expecting Brian to chime in and call me a dumb ass.

The pressure plate's normal resting position with or without engine running is putting pressure on the clutch plate even in neutral, so the clutch plate is always engaged. When the thrust bearing gets hydraulic pressure it pushes forward against the pressure plate cause the fingers to flex and release the clutch disc from both flywheel surfaces.

So it is the force of the thrust bearing that pushes against the pressure plate when in gear I say causes the pressure plate fingers to wear out of tension, that's the wear I was referring to. But it probably does not make any difference since the clutch will wear out sooner than the pressure plate and since you have to buy the entire package as a kit (pressure plate, clutch disc together only) you never have to worry about the pressure plate wearing out even if you leave it in 1st gear all the time.

 

Any time the car is not in motion and the engine is running the clutch is in that position. It makes zero difference if the car is in gear or in N.

 

Let me rephrase this see if you have a different answer.

So it is the force of the thrust bearing pushing against the pressure plate when the clutch pedal is pushed or in F1's case the paddles being pressed or left in gear with engine running that causes the pressure plate fingers to wear out of tension, that's the wear I was referring to.

I guess if I am trying to picture this mentally, in either case (resting in neutral or in gear) the pressure plate always have some sort of "external" pressure it is one way or another. Correct?

 

If you think about a three pedal car, when you are in neutral, the clutch is out and the pressure plate is engaged, exactly as it is in an F1 shifter car, there is just no attachment to the driveline in neutral. The constant contact T/O bearing remains in contact in neutral, unlike a Corvette or other American cars. The savings on clutch life by using neutral when coming to a stop is from not having you or the system downshifting through the lower gears as you slow and stop. That does wear the clutch.

The question of safety of in gear vs out of gear "in case something happens" you have to answer for yourself. I personally select neutral if I will come to a full stop. If traffic starts moving selecting the upshift paddle gets you the highest gear where the engine will run smoothly, nearly always too high a gear. Selecting the downshift lever from neutral gets you one gear lower. If I am stopped in neutral and "something happens", hitting the upshift paddle and getting 1st gear just does not take that long. Way less time than stabbing the clutch pedal and selecting 1st gear in a three pedal car.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

WRONG




ANYTIME the car is not moving and the engine is running the clutch is DISENGAGED.

 

Brian- OK, I stand corrected on that point.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Brian- Follow-on question to the clutch being open when the car is stopped in 1st or neutral is what happens when you select neutral while still rolling? Does the system do like it does with 1st and stay engaged to a certain speed (engine or car?) and then open, or does it go to open as soon as the engine reaches idle?

Learning all kinds of useful info on the clutch from your answers and working with Duram Plummer on his Durametrics Ferrari tools. Did you ever get in touch with him?

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

I've always done the same and a mechanic I spoke with at a dealership said to continue doing what I was doing.

 

Jon- I do the same, but as we have read, it does not affect the T/O (thrust) bearing at all since it is a constant contact type and also the pressure plate is open. Same way I always drove three pedal cars and trucks.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Does the car roll backwards when you are on a hill stopped in 1st? If so don't you think the car is in N if that happens?

 

No the car does not roll backwards since all of this assumes you have your foot firmly on the brake. If you take your foot off the brake the car shifts itself into neutral within a few seconds. But then why would you take your foot off the brake on a hill?

 

Assuming you need to let off the brakes to move the right foot to the gas pedal. Normal manual you would move a tad backward so this doesn't happen on a F1?

 

F1 cars don't have a "hill holder" function if that's what you're asking.

So if you're stopped at a red light on an incline the car will start rolling backwards as you switch from the brake pedal to the accelerator. To avoid that you should use the handbrake.

 

Brian,

What's Ferrari's thinking behind the F1 clutch being disengaged regardless of whether 1st gear is selected or neutral?

 

You are correct that moving foot from brake to gas while stopped on an incline will generally result in slight rearward movement before the clutch begins to engage and move the car forward. Same thing happens with a manual. Also just like a manual you can use two feet (left on brake, right on gas for F1; left on clutch, right toe/heel on brake/gas for manual) to arrest rearward movement by matching clutch engagement exactly to brake release. An easier way might be using the handbrake as suggested by Ferrarista3.

At the end of the day, my experience has been that the Ferrari F1 system does everything a manual does, and largely the same way. The main difference is that the F1 does it with astonishing smoothness and effortless precision every time.

 

If the F1 is almost like the manual gear box then why are people saying it may cause wear if you don't shift it to N? If the car moves backwards when you are at a hill stop but the F1 shows 1st gear selected means the car is in effect in N? If the car is in N then there shouldn't be any extra wear. Sorry if this isn't all to clear.

 

Leaving the clutch wear discussion aside, The reason the F1 cars slide backwards on a hill is the same as a manual car, it is in gear but the clutch is pushed in. the F1 will not release the clutch for engagement unless gas pedal is pressed from a standing still position.

 

It's not clear why some people say that because it is not true. The simple fact is that with the F1 in gear but car not moving and foot on brake, the clutch is fully disengaged so there is no wear. Putting the gearbox into neutral in that case provides no mechanical advantage whatsoever. Perhaps they are thinking of holding the car on an incline by slipping the clutch (i.e., foot *off* brake but *on* gas). That is possible but would definitely wear the clutch (just like a manual).

If you stop on an incline in gear with foot on brake and take foot off brake but *do not* press on gas, the car will indeed roll backwards since the clutch is fully disengaged. The F1 system will also shift itself into neutral within seconds as you roll backwards. If you instead move foot directly from brake to gas, the clutch will begin to engage immediately even though the car may have slipped backwards slightly in the time it took to shift your foot and press down on gas (just like a manual). Safest technique starting up an incline is to engage hand brake, move foot from brake to gas and release hand brake as clutch begins to engage (again, same as a manual).

Operation of the Ferrari F1 system is much more intuitive and simple than you are thinking. It acts very much as you would naturally expect if you are accustomed to a manual clutch and gearbox system. Few people realize the very complex nature of manual shifting, making the design and engineering achievement by Ferrari quite remarkable.

 

They never consulted me.

But seriously it is not something they ever brought up even in F1 school or 360 school in Maranello. I happened to notice it a number of years ago diagnosing a car that was engaging the clutch all by itself. Its the only reason I know. You can watch clutch operation on the computer and that is how it is programmed.