Q on Original fuel pump 83 QV | FerrariChat

Q on Original fuel pump 83 QV

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by DIY F+M, Jun 5, 2019.

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  1. DIY F+M

    DIY F+M Rookie

    Jun 4, 2019
    5
    Full Name:
    lloyd ales
    Hello
    I am working on a couple of 80s Ferraris that have been sitting 5 ys+ ....so drained all the fuel and changing out the fuel pumps.
    83 Mondial QV
    85 308 GTS QV
    the mondial I used to drive more than the 308
    because the 308 had a hard starting problem after `warmed up
    the 308 started normally when cold.
    So looking at what seems to be the original style fuel pump in the Mondial ;
    Bosch 0580 254 975
    669402
    it has an extended 'snout" and looking in the hole there is a little piece of plastic
    Is this a check valve?

    The 308 with the hot start problem has a different style fuel pump with the blue stripe
    i have already replaced the Mondial fuel pump with a similar aftermarket fuel pump [last photo]
    not the bosch pump with the long snout .
    i was able to get it running on the aftermarket pump... but that doesn't mean job is necessarily done
    wondering if I need to do anything to the fuel delivery plumbing to make these aftermarket pumps work well.

    83 mondial pump outlet trying to show white plastic object in outlet
    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    83 Mondial Bosch Pump re-rmoved and replaced with pump in next photo Image Unavailable, Please Login File Photo of Typical Aftermarket Fuel Pump I am Installing below
    ;the supplied outlet unscrews and the factory piping fits with no leaks .The Pump in The 308 looks to be this style and the person I bought if from told me
    that he had replaced the pump as well as some other things suggested by his mechanic to cure the hot start problem which fortunately i saw before we closed the deal.
    He mentioned he "got sick of spending money on the issue" and just lived with it.
    So I have interesting test because I may see this hot start issue on the Mondial now or I may not.
    Any thoughts or Advise?
    Apologies if this issue has been addressed already and thanks in advance for your knowledge.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    No, that is the later style pump. The check valve is the brass-colored piece that you removed (so even though the fuel line fit, you now have no check valve). To use that later fuel pump on the '83 Mondial requires changing the fuel line to have a banjo fitting to fit the brass-colored check valve.

    Try a search on "Bosch 69523 69532" for prior threads, or search on Amazon using "Bosch 69523" or "Bosch 69532".

    Bosch 69523 (with the built in internal check valve) would be the exact replacement for your '83 Mondial (but 69523 is a Bosch USA part number). This pump was not available for many years so a lot of cars using this early style pump did have their fuel line plumbing changed to use the later style pump. However, this early style pump is now available again.

    Bosch 69532 (also known a Bosch 0 580 254 975) has the replaceable check valve.
     
  3. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    Looking at the diagram of the 308 QV for the fuel system, it shows the accumulator as item 7 pt no 113978. If you have hot start problems then this is probably no good. This keeps the fuel pressurized and stops it turning to vapour when the engine has just stopped. The fuel will stop in the pipes in the engine bay and the residual engine heat will boil the fuel in the pipe, hence it is hard to start. I take it, this is the injection model.
    Check to see if someone has removed it by mistake or it might have been leaking
     
  4. DIY F+M

    DIY F+M Rookie

    Jun 4, 2019
    5
    Full Name:
    lloyd ales
    thank you both for your responses.
    The second blue stripe pump came today I had started on the 308 but gas draining was still going on ....better to let it dry out few days.
    I have changed 10 fuel pumps last 6 months mostly in tank and am sick of bad gas ...makes me want to take a nap...the fumes.
    So If I understand Steve's response;
    1]the cheap blue stripe pump [last photo]outlet that unscrews has a check valve in it?
    thought it was just a brass tube and
    2] by using the Ferrari braided line now there isn't one ? [I need to get some pictures of lines ;have that pan cover off and gonna stay off for a while]
    The Bosch 69532 looks like the pump in last photo so I would need to get some adaptors to hook to braided line ?
    The 69523 would go right in to the current set up but even thought it look like the pump in first photo that I removed
    it contains a check valve?
    What would I need to go to the The Bosch 69532 outlet and mate with the existing plumbing?
    Mike 32
    thank you for help with hot start legacy issue 308
    when i install pump I will inspect the accumulator and get some pics
    thought I saw twisted steel connector...dont think I did that wrestling with pump removal 3/4 done
    so possibly a restriction issue .
    right now a 'any start' is the priority for the 308
    the mondial pump would not come on with that poor ground location on the rubber isolation mount screw
    so I relocated ground screw and upsized the wire guage and came on fine.
    plan to do that for 308 too.
    In regards to diagnosis
    sounds like you ,me ,and probably the expensive mechanics the former owner employed
    all think its vapor lock... almost to easy
    well hopefully they missed something.
    i will be able to check the pump that is in the 308 model # and see what they put in once it is out.
    again thank you both for your help !
     
  5. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    If i remember right the accumulator has a leakage or tell tail hole, they are cheap anyway. You will find a lot of threads on here regarding this hot start and the accumulator failure- also check the fuel lines in the engine bay, are they getting heated when stopped, is it a single fuel line or does it have a return to the tank- i know a mondial but not the 308 .
     
  6. DIY F+M

    DIY F+M Rookie

    Jun 4, 2019
    5
    Full Name:
    lloyd ales
    So back to work after gas evap -work space improvement break [not laying in gas puddle] 85 308 Ferrari GTS.
    Got pump out and decided to take out accumulator as well cause could not break nuts in place.
    i see that I have a damaged pipe from pump to accumulator.Not sure if i did that taking out
    or previous mechanic.I dont think I twisted it that much getting pump out. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
    try to straighten it by heating and bending with vice grips but after straiten a bit I see pliers left score on flat surface
    probably will leak even with copper washers .Anyone know part availability of this Fuel Pump to
    accumulator pipe?.
    This is vehicle that had hot start- hard start but not assuming this kink had any pertinence to that issue

    This car had different fuel pump in than my 83 mondial it is a Bosch 0 580 254942
    365-18
    i am replacing with aftermarket pump swamped out the outlet tube but looks like the same style as the bosch
     

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  7. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    The connections on your pipe are probably silver soldered on, so they can be melted off and reused if that is the case.
    A tip to get these pipe nuts open is to use 2 small hammers on opposite flats at the same time, they can be a bit of a pig.
     
  8. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    The connections on your pipe are probably silver soldered on, so they can be melted off and reused if that is the case.
    The Eurospares uk site shows this pipe bit not as stock item.
    Look on Superperformance uk site as well
    Nothing stopping you fitting a flexy pipe
     
  9. DIY F+M

    DIY F+M Rookie

    Jun 4, 2019
    5
    Full Name:
    lloyd ales
    so progressing with repair and this 308 is fighting me.If nothing else it will be a useful "what not to do"
    when changing out the fuel pump.
    #1 would be don't assume routine parts like a fuel line are available even for the most common ferrari
    I was unable to get the flat surface on the pump end smooth and flat enough[by grinding it down] to not leak even with the copper washers
    so I pulled the pump assembly out and cut the pipe in two saving the accumulator end,and fitted a very handy barbed outlet which I had bought extras for a Mercedes I was working on.These allow you to use the Bosch style pumps on pretty much any system with a rubber fuel line and the barbs make a great seal. [first reasambly photo- looks ok but leaked gas at outlet of pump bent tube straitened with vice grips flat surface ground to smooth burrs]
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Unfortunately on my first attempt after putting it back in it also leaked
    I was having leakage at the acumulator end with 3/8 injection hose held with clamps as well as at the check valve to pump.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    [second photo showing handy Bosch to rubber line adaptors and fuel injection high pressure line]
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    [Third photo showing reused accumulator inlet that leaked in 2nd attempt; looks like it needs a smaller rubber line diameter] Image Unavailable, Please Login

    As I am getting sick of redoing it and bathing in gasoline;I decided extensive bench testing using colored water will be needed to get it leak free before put together again.You cant tighten the 17 and 19 MM connections once it is in.
    I am going to try a smaller hose and better clamps to try to hold the pressure at the accumulator end.
    If this fails I am not sure how to connect the accumulator to the pump If that end had a barbed inlet like the pump outlet it would be possible to get a good seal.
     
  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #10 Steve Magnusson, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
    Have you tried contacting Larry Fletcher at www.cisflowtech.com (251) 929.3771? I know that he's helped many FChatters replace that (bad design IMO) steel line on F models of that era. Typically the high pressure lines on CIS systems are either steel or thick-walled Cohline polyamide tubing.because the pressure (~75 psi) is much higher than on a more modern EFI system (~45 psi). He'll have the appropriate barbed fittings for each end and the Cohline tubing (or, at least, a barbed fitting for the Accumulator end).

    See, for example, Paul Newman's work in posts #11 and #17 of this thread replacing a similar line on a BB512i:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/boxer-cis-fuel-system-inspection-repair.189796/#post-137582761

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/137582761/

    I would never trust a rubber line hose-clamped to a non-barbed fitting at 75 psi.
     
  11. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

    May 13, 2016
    5,828
    Isle of man- uk
    Where you have the flat face banjo fitting, your pics show copper washers each side. These will be hard to get a seal on as the pipe is stiff. See if you can find some Dowty seal rings- these are alloy rings with rubber ring- used in hydraulics
     
  12. snoutmeat

    snoutmeat Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    37
    Hello! Jumping on this old thread rather than starting a new one because I'm in more or less the same spot.

    --I have an '84 Mondial QV that's been dozing for years, and I'm working to revive it.
    --I'm draining the old fuel and replacing fuel lines; the pump appears to be shot.
    --The OE replacement is Bosch 69523, which has the internal check valve?
    --Others are recommending the Bosch 69532, which has the external check valve?
    --I see that the 69532 has a banjo style fitting, whereas the original 69523 has a different style. I am not near the car at the moment; if I upgrade to 69532, then do I need different hose/hardware to use?
    --If I get the 69523 and the internal check valve fails, the pump functions as though there's no check valve? If that happens, can I just add an external check valve?
    --If the check valve goes bad, what are the symptoms? Hard starting? Isn't the accumulator serving the same function as the check valve?
    --Superformance is showing a different pump than either the 69523 or the 69532; the one they are showing (http://www.superformance.co.uk/mondial/fuel.html) has a wavy rim (looks like a pie crust).

    I have a 69523 on the way from Amazon, but their delivery time just slipped by a week, so now I have a chance to reconsider my pump options.
     
  13. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #13 Steve Magnusson, May 29, 2021
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
    Yes, if the car is presently plumbed with the 69523, you'd need some fairly serious plumbing changes to use the 69532.

    In theory, yes, but it's not like you can just easily add the external check valve to the 69523 pump -- that's just as much (or even more) plumbing work as changing from the 69523 pump to the 69532 pump.

    Yes, hard warm restarting if the check valve fails (or if something else fails and causes the residual pressure to quickly fall to zero after engine shutoff). The accumulator and the check valve work together to keep the residual pressure up -- if the check valve fails, the accumulator just pushes fuel backwards thru the check valve until all the pressure is lost.

    Yes, I don't like that pump either as it has a smaller diameter body and pump head (the "pie crust" piece is something to build up the outer diameter so that the body fits the OE loop clamp on the chassis). The picture on the Superformance website is actually a substitute for the 69532 pump (Ferrari PN 121727), yet the Ferrari PN of 113976 is the 69523 pump = I'd make sure that you really know what they are supplying before buying. My advice = if you presently have the 69523, just buy another 69523; if you have a 69532, just buy another 69532.
     

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