Pushrod between brake booster and master cylinder?? | FerrariChat

Pushrod between brake booster and master cylinder??

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Mike C, Nov 22, 2009.

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  1. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 3, 2002
    6,081
    Southeast USA
    Full Name:
    Mike Charness
    On the 3x8 cars and probably others, the shop manual suggests replacing the brake booster and master cylinder as a complete unit. But what happens if you don't? People sometimes have their boosters or masters replaced without doing it as a pair.

    I've read the info available online such as at
    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/brakes/brake-types/power-brake.htm

    and what I wonder is what happens if the length of the pushrod between the master and booster isn't set at 'exactly' the perfect length? From what I understand about brakes, it would seem to me that either the booster activates the master cylinder or it doesn't. Even with a dual chamber master, both chambers act off the same pushrod, so if you get braking action, it's working.

    The reason I ask is that I had bought and installed a new master cylinder several years ago, and the brakes worked just fine... the new master fixed the pedal creep. But more recently, I bought a brand new booster when mine was diagnosed as failing and had my mechanic put it in. With the new booster, the brake pedal became "not right, in other words not linear in pressure, but rather asymptotic. What I mean is, that instead of constant smooth brake application, it comes on hard at the end of the pedal travel, rather suddenly.

    Can someone educate me? If that 'rod' isn't right (and we've tried the new rod that came with the new booster, as well as put in the old rod off my previous booster), would that cause this?
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    Both the primary push rod and the master push rod need a slight amount of free play to insure "A" the vacuum valve closes on the booster and "B" the fluid return ports in the master open to release fluid pressure and allow the free flow of fluid back to the reservior for heat expansion purposes.


    Your problem sounds like an internal booster problem. I have had a number of problems recently with new OE boosters. They have all looked as though they have been on the shelf since the 80's when the cars were built and required repair before use.

    Be sure you have a good, leak free vacuum hose and a good vacuum check valve etc.
     
  3. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
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    6,081
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    Changed the check valve early on, but that didn't help. In fact, going back to a more restrictive check valve seemed to help the issue slightly (but far from fully).

    This was a booster bought from Dennis McCann, and I had to wait for them to receive it; I'll have to find out if they'd gotten it from NOS or if it was new manufacture. It certainly looked new.

    If I need to have the booster rebuilt (I hate the idea of doing that on a brand new booster, but I could have my old one done), do you have any suggestions other than White Post?
     
  4. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #4 Rifledriver, Nov 23, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
    The boosters I have had trouble with have not been from my suppliers shelf either but they were sitting somewhere.

    Without doubt White Post would be my last choice.

    I do not send boosters out. Do a quick search. Several well regarded rebuilders have been mentioned in recent threads. If that doesn't work out let me know. I will come up with a name.

    Also, just in the name of covering the bases you should consider taking the pedal box out and apart. They were lubed from the factory with white lithium grease and at this point in their life that stuff has turned to epoxy. I do lots of those from cars of the 80's for sticky pedals. I just did our 90 TR pedal box about a month ago. Big difference.
     
  5. eurogt4

    eurogt4 Karting

    Apr 15, 2006
    243
    Sacramento, CA
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    Mike
    I have always have had very good results from Power Brake Exchange in San Jose, CA. They have always done a good job, even on some real oddballs.
     
  6. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
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    Does that mean you can do it if I send it to you? Otherwise I'll check with Power Brake Exchange and others.

    Also, if you don't mind IMing me your phone & email contact info, it would be appreciated if I can have my mechanic Gary Searles call you (I think he may have talked to you before) if we get in a bind.

    Thanks!
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Power brake exchange is the way to go. I could not remember their name but they have had a good reputation around here for a long time.

    PM sent
     
  8. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
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    How do you know what the proper length of the activating rod should be?

    And how do you test a booster that you think is bad off the shelf? I know the booster is certainly providing boost (plug off the vacuum valve and it's obvious when driving the car).
     
  9. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    We have also had very good work done by power brake exchange. Whatever you do, don't send anything to Whitepost.

    Brian Brown
    Patrick Ottis Co.'
     
  10. eurogt4

    eurogt4 Karting

    Apr 15, 2006
    243
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    Mike
    The clearance between the brake pedal linkage and the pedal side of the booster should be .3mm with brakes released. The pushrod at the master cylinder end of the booster should have a very small clearance between it and the master cylinder piston, just enough to let the master cylinder return to the full rest position when the brakes are not applied. The manual does not give this clearance, I can't recall, does this rod have an adjustment? If it is adjustable, I would guess that .2 or .3mm would work
     
  11. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
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    Yes, the rod *is* adjustable. I noticed that the rod that came with the factory booster was slightly shorter than the rod that came with the new/replacement booster. We put the original rod back in, but maybe it's still slightly too long for the new booster. I'm hoping Brian will pipe in here...
     
  12. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
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    Power Brake Exchange in San Jose, CA

    Their website is no longer active: www.powerbrakeexchange.com

    Their phone numbers, 408-292-1305 and 800-322-1775 just rang and rang today, no answer, no answering machine or message.

    Does anyone have different info for them or can verify that they're still around?
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I just called the 408 number and they answered right away.
     
  14. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    If the rod is too long, you can look down through the primary fill port on the brake master cylinder as you bolt the master to the booster (this is with the booster already installed and pedal adjusted correctly). If you see the primary piston move, then the rod is too long, as it should not be contacting the piston. I always blow backwards through the output ports, with the master in place. There should be no restriction. If there is no flow, then you are going to have problems with the brakes sticking on.
     
  15. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

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    #15 chrismorse, Dec 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Good luck Mike,

    Here is a stainless pushrod i had made to adapt a larger mc to the stock booster. We made it to have the same dimensions, particularly the projection from mc mounting face to the end of the foot. works fine.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. pgarossino

    pgarossino Formula Junior

    Nov 19, 2009
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    Houston Tx
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    Paul G.A. Garossino
    I came across this thread tonight and you guys may have saved me a lot of grief. I am new to the Ferrari scene. I acquired my first Ferrari a few weeks ago [84 308 GTS QV] and am going through the car restoring things in order of importance.

    I have a hissing booster and leaking master so I was searching around for a reasonable place to do a rebuild. I had pretty much decided, in my ignorance, on White Post Restorations but noticed several posts here suggesting that route as worse than a last resort.

    Can someone clue me in as to why to avoid them. Feel free to e-mail me off chat if you don't want to pollute this thread with that information.

    I'll certainly look a little further now and will check out the other shops noted here.

    Paul
     
  17. Mike C

    Mike C F1 Veteran
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    Aug 3, 2002
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