Propane conversion ... already have aftermarket EFI | FerrariChat

Propane conversion ... already have aftermarket EFI

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by luckydynes, Nov 15, 2011.

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  1. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    pit bull
    Hey all,

    What is involved in converting a motor to run on propane vs. gasoline when one already has a stand alone programmable EFI system?

    Will gasoline fuel injectors work okay?

    Is the pressure of the propane tank essentially enough to feed the system or does it require a pump? I would imagine it probably gets regulated if the tank pressure is enough.

    Thanks for any input,

    Sean
     
  2. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Answered a couple of my own questions:

    1. Don't need a pump.
    2. Air fuel ratio is close to fuel. Not a big deal to alter the ECU map for different fuels ... I was wondering about it because of the necessary size of tanks I would need to carry. Kind of a bummer .. I was hoping a 5 gallon would give me some decent range ... I think the packaging/installation of the tanks is one of the most challenging parts of a conversion ... I just like the 100/110 octane ratings that are thrown around out there, and the fact I have a 1000 gallon propane tank that we get filled for around $2/gallon depending on the state of the market.

    It would be neat to put a 5 gallon tank in the trunk area, open and close a couple of valves, flip a switch to change ECU maps, and instantly take advantage of my high compression motor instead of expensive race gas. I'm worried the location of the tank is going to upset the cars balance! :) LOL

    cheers

    P.S. ... yes ... this is for my 308 :)
     
  3. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    Actually custom tanks in the Factory location would be "doable" I would think....

    Entex fleet trucks here have run on it for decades, I think it's just a swap of the carb system with no engine mods...not sure.
     
  4. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    I'd like to be able to still run gasoline if I want.

    Maybe I just throw it in the trunk like guys do an accusump? ... or up in the front where the spare tire was?

    cheers
     
  5. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

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  6. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    Dec 21, 2000
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  7. JeremyJon

    JeremyJon F1 Veteran

    Jul 28, 2010
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    Calgary, Canada
    search the mustang forums, i know there were a few guys running injected LPG cars there.....the most notable one i know was the 'slot cars' mustang GT

    would be an intersting project to be sure....LPG has the advantage of high octane ratio, but some special equipment, and different fuel storage
     
  8. lamar

    lamar Formula Junior

    Feb 9, 2004
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    #8 lamar, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    i have been driving a 2003 Peugeot 607 V6 with 200 hp running LPG for the last 2 years and cannot feel the difference with gas.
    i have also had a Range Rover V8 and an Opel running LPG in the past 15 years.
    the 12 gallons tank replaces the spare tire and has a capacity of 300kms more or less, depending on how i drive.
    don't know about the price but here the difference is around 50% less for a liter.
    I only take my car to someone who is really specialized with LPG.
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  9. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
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    The LPG vehicle conversion industry in the US has nearly been regulated out of existence, so anyone contemplating doing a conversion will be hardpressed to get it done "legally" unless the car is old enough, or special enough that it's exempt from various EPA/DOT/NHTSA regulations. Fleet vehicles do get special treatment, but a single end user wanting to get his own personal vehicle converted is pretty much SOL. Very unlike the situation in Canada, the UK, and Europe where automotive LPG conversion is a thriving industry.

    I'm somewhat familiar with both carbed and injected gaseous fueled engines as I worked for two of the US's largest gaseous fueled engine companies for a number of years, so I'll try to answer some of the questions posed to the best of my ability:

    Normal gasoline injectors will not work for a "typical" LPG vapor injection system for several reasons - they're too small, plus gaseous fuel doesn't provide enough lubrication for a gasoline injector. Gasoline injectors "might" be large enough for a liquid LPG injection system, but those systems are still few & far between. Keihin of Japan make excellent bespoke CNG and LPG injectors, and the high end LPG systems from Prins (NL) use them. The cheaper Italian systems use everything from simple solenoid valves to proper injectors, depending on the brand.

    The vapor pressure in the LPG tank is usually enough to feed an injected system on a naturally aspirated car, or a very low boost turbocharged car in a hot climate. But the PVT characteristics of LPG are such that on a cold day, there may not be sufficient pressure or temperature to vaporise the LPG and start the car, so starting is almost always done on gasoline, unless supplemental electric fuel heaters have been fitted as a vaporisation assist.

    Driving range on LPG is about 75% of an equivalent amount of gasoline because LPG has less energy per unit volume than gasoline. Also LPG tanks can only be filled to about 85%, and should not be fully drained, so one doesn't get the full capacity of the LPG fuel tank.

    Another impediment to automotive LPG conversion in the US is the lack of suitable tanks for passenger cars. It's difficult to justify dedicating your trunk space to a large cylindrical LPG tank, and only Manchester Tank, and maybe one other North American company make them. The nice little toroidal tanks from Stako (Poland) that replace the donut spare are not yet ASME stamped (last I checked), so they "legally" cannot be used in the US, although they're certified to TUV regs and are popular in the UK, Europe, etc. Plus toroidal tanks don't have a very large capacity (50-80 litres typically), so they provide a fairly limited range for a high performance car.

    As much as I like gaseous fueled engines, and would like to see more LPG fueled vehicles in the US, the driving reason to convert to LPG in most automotive applications is the cheaper cost of the fuel, and that advantage is only found outside the US. The $/BTU energy pricing model in the US makes LPG not much cheaper than other motor fuels. To be sure Agro and home heating LPG are cheaper than the motor fuel, but a reputable LPG company won't give your car a fill with these fuels, and trying to fill your car's tank from a stationary tank could turn into an exercise in self immolation unless you really know what you're doing.

    So for most people, the cost and hassles involved in converting a car to LPG for higher performance reasons might be better spent on fitting a small auxiliary tank of C16.

    Still and all, after pointing out all the disadvantages, I do have a complete Prins LPG vapor injection system waiting to be eventually installed on a supercharged V8 I'm playing with, if I should live so long :)
     
  10. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
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    Thank you for the responses all!

    Cribbj thank you.

    I was wondering about the state of the propane when it made it to the fuel rails. I was wondering if it stayed liquid all the way to the fuel injectors ... doesn't sound like it from reading your post or there are specific problems with trying to keep the mixture liquid???

    Size would not be an issue if the propane were to stay liquid I'm assuming, but if it is in fact a gas, I can see how the injectors would have to be a lot bigger.

    If I do venture into this I'll be doing all this myself. Have my own machine shop, etc.

    I can search down some of the links but are there some fundamentals on keeping the propane liquid all the way to the injector? I would think it is just a pressure/temperature issue?

    Without me digging, what is the approximate pressure to keep propane liquid at 100 f?

    One other thought ... what would I need to extract propane out of my land tanks? .... I guess I'll need a pump to create enough pressure to keep it liquid???

    cheers,

    Sean
     
  11. Cribbj

    Cribbj Formula 3
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    #11 Cribbj, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011
    There are two LPG injection technologies - the tried & true vapor injection, which keeps the LPG liquid until it reaches the engine bay where it passes through a vaporiser/regulator, and it then goes into the fuel rail(s) and injectors as a gas.

    The newest technology keeps the LPG fuel in liquid form and injects it as a liquid fuel. This technology operates at much higher pressure than the vapor, and last I knew, still wasn't quite ready for prime time, as it requires heavy insulation of the system, plus pumps to maintain the system pressure, etc.

    The vapor pressure of commercial HD5 propane at 100 degF, is around 175 psig, but it drops with higher concentrations of butanes and other heavies.
     

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