Preventive replacement heat exchanger? | FerrariChat

Preventive replacement heat exchanger?

Discussion in '360/430' started by ChrisW1, Jul 3, 2017.

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  1. ChrisW1

    ChrisW1 Formula 3

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    #1 ChrisW1, Jul 3, 2017
    Many previous threads have highlighted issues with the heat exchanger in the 360. Another disastrous story was written about this in the Dutch section of Fchat a few days ago, leading to the engine overheating and causing damage (see post 88717):

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/holland-belgium/16406-nederlandstalig-dutch-speaking-4436.html

    I own a 360 Spider and so far do not seem to have a malfunctioning heat exchanger. I do not have perfect maintenance records about the car (bought it about a year ago) and I can not assume that the cooling fluid has been changed extremely frequently (although I do not know this).

    I can’t think of any reason why my car will not likely suffer from the universal problem that has been reported by others. it seems that with each year that passes the chance increases that I'll also become a victim of this problem. I’m therefore thinking about a preventive replacement of the heat exchanger (and thereafter changing the fluids frequently to minimize future risks).

    Does this make sense or am I exaggerating? I would not be surprised if I’ll keep the car for a long time to come and would not like to see the car suffer from a major break down that I could have prevented.
     
  2. netman

    netman Formula 3

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    #2 netman, Jul 3, 2017
    You should be fine if you flush and change your fluids on a yearly basis. It is the acidity created by older fluids that appears to do damage.
     
  3. gaxford

    gaxford Rookie

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    #3 gaxford, Jul 3, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Chris, I was in a similar situation to you two years ago when I bought my 2003 Spider. I had extensive service records, but no records of coolant change. The first thing I did was replace the heat exchanger. Upon inspection, the old part looked fine ( although I never cut it open), but the peace of mind was well worth the $2,000 AUD I had to spend to change out the part.

    Its a big job and requires removal of the intake plenums. I now get the coolant tested every year.

    Some photos included...

    Good luck.
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  4. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #4 vrsurgeon, Jul 3, 2017
    Mmm.. yeah you might as well change the A-arms on all 4 wheels. They might be wearing out. You also might want to change out the water pump (it might go), all 4 coils (they can go individually) and spark plugs, the clutch and sensors (it is goes it leaves you stranded), steering rack (can wear out also as these cars age), ALL ECU's in the car (might short out you know), and replace all the leather and carpeting in the car (mold might develop). Oh.. actually why not change the engine and the transmission as well. You never know what might be wrong with those! :)

    Seriously? And what if the part you're changing out is perfectly fine? What then? Why the new part might have a bad weld that will leak or rupture as well..

    Mine has 63100k miles (101,549 KM). Just changed all the oils yesterday and no leaks and no water in the transmission fluid. What I do is check the coolant tank once in a while for oil film and correlate that with shifting problems. Original intercooler. If it ruptures then I put a new one in or convert it to challenge spec and flush out the tranny. Ferrari owners tend to have more money than brains and treat their cars like they're some special snowflake.
     
  5. LorenzoR

    LorenzoR F1 Rookie
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    #5 LorenzoR, Jul 3, 2017
    HAHA Curt, i have to say you crack me up HAHA
     
  6. CrazyMD

    CrazyMD Formula Junior

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    #6 CrazyMD, Jul 4, 2017


    Well said


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  7. ChrisW1

    ChrisW1 Formula 3

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    #7 ChrisW1, Jul 4, 2017
    :)

    I think the comparisons that you make with most other parts of the car fail to make sense to me. Those parts can either be inspected without replacing them, will not have detrimental consequences if they fail or are not known to be key specific issues of concern for the 360.

    It seems to me that a better comparison can be made with timing belts and oil. I guess you never replace those either? You just inspect them frequently and only change them if something fails :) I hope that you do not do this but this means that every time you will be replacing a timing belt or oil that is stil working fine.

    If not: what is the difference with the heat exchanger? It seems that if Ferrari would have known about the number of failures that happened 10-15 years after production, they would have either selected/designed a different heat exchanger or would have prescribed a replacement every 10 years.

    In a way it seems the same as the diff problem with the 512TR. Many have failed due to what seems like a combination of a design error and metal fatigue. As time goes by, the chance increases that you will end up with a very costly break down (just as with the timing belt, oil or heat exchanger on the 360). I will likely have the diff replaced next time I'll have an engine out service (which I hopefully also do as part of preventive maintenance rather than only after the engine has blown).

    I might think differently about the heat exchanger if there could be a good reason why the part in my car (it is 2004) is far less likely to suffer from corrosion failure than the ones that have already failed. So far, I can't think of any reason why I'm lucky.
     
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  8. FlyingHaggisRacing

    FlyingHaggisRacing Formula 3

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    #8 FlyingHaggisRacing, Jul 4, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
    Solution X.
    Get rid of the heat exchanger altogether and put a gearbox radiator in - I did :)


    Funny I have 2 used heat exchangers for sale - if anybody wants one cheap.
     
  9. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 World Champ
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    #9 RedNeck, Jul 4, 2017
    More info on this?
     
  10. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #10 vrsurgeon, Jul 4, 2017
    Of the 18,000 360's made, how many heat exchangers have failed? More importantly, how many have you read about that have failed? 5? 10? You not lucky so far.. Your car is normal. :)

    Here's a better question.. How many are like mine and NOT failed? The vast majority I suppose. I'm not partial to tornados, but I haven't encased my home in concrete.

    Annual oil, coolant and transmission fluid with belts every 5 years, keep an eye out for oil sheen on the coolant, and drive it and enjoy it. If I see an oil sheen THEN drain the transmission coolant and see if there is contamination. If there is, then I'll flush it out and replace the transmission cooler or go the air challenge route.

    If you feel the need go for it, it's your money.
     
  11. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #11 vrsurgeon, Jul 4, 2017
  12. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
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    #12 360+Volt=Prius, Jul 4, 2017
    Im no pro. I went through a similar thought process to the OP. When doing my last major I did a bunch of other work. Decided to change my intake gaskets. I heard that little bastard heat exchanger whispering to me. "I dare you not to change me." So I did.

    My original looked perfect on inspection without dismembering (would expect the visible inner tubes to show pitting if present. )

    In hindsight glad I did under the circumstances because maintenance records lacking. I do my work myself so cost was ~$500.

    Remember as curt notes we get a skewed representation of this problem because we read posts from the outliers after a catastrophe.

    If u check gear oil when able, and coolant regularly, check for changes in operating temp, and shifting you should be able to catch it before irreparable gearbox damage. From what I understand it's just cleaning gearbox, and worse cleaning the cooling system that's the pina and time consuming.

    FYI - according to a number of our respected pros here the intake manifold doesn't have to come off to access.

    I use no rosoin additive and change coolant every 3 years. After reading their data I feel pretty confident in this product.

    http://www.no-rosion.com/


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  13. hairman

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    #13 hairman, Jul 4, 2017
    could not agree more!!!!!! had a boxster and lots of stuff said about that car also 80,000 sold it with original clutch and replace water pump at 77,000. had myself worried sick now the Ferrari more crazy talk.
     
  14. FlyingHaggisRacing

    FlyingHaggisRacing Formula 3

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    #14 FlyingHaggisRacing, Jul 4, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
    @RedNeck

    There are a few pictures on my thread.
    Pretty much as per the drawings - indeed the concept came from the Challenge solution.

    1. I didn't use a spacer in the V, just silicon hose.
    2. I used an Oil Thermostat mounted on top of the gearbox to get oil temps up quickly.
    3. The Oil Rad with a fan (Summit Racing) is mounted in the empty space in the left rear wing and is fed some air from holes in the air tube.


    And yes - i know my car is now worthless due to this and other mods. ;) (apparently i don't care as to it's resale value - as i drive it everyday so it will be worthless due to mileage soon enough ).
     
  15. FlyingHaggisRacing

    FlyingHaggisRacing Formula 3

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    #15 FlyingHaggisRacing, Jul 4, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  16. ChrisW1

    ChrisW1 Formula 3

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    #16 ChrisW1, Jul 4, 2017
    I fear that I've read about many more cases with problems ... and I think that many people will not report such issues extensively on the internet as the consequences (coolant in the gearbox and/or overheating) are not something that most people would like to advertise out of a concern for resale value.

    Just check out this single thread:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/technical-q/355457-360-heat-exchanger-leak-gearbox-coolant.html

    and see just the first posts in this thread (there are more reported failures later in the thread):

    FerrariDublin: "I think my gear-oil heat exchanger has sprung a leak."

    Ricambi: "^. Sadly, I think this is becoming too common.From my very casual observation, we've sold more of them to the 360 cars than F355"

    tech4ferrari: "I have replaced quite a few of these units recently, I am interested in seeing a pic of the aftermarket trans cooler set up."

    rusty bits: "I've replaced quite a few of these also. "


    If you see the pictures of a cut open heat exchanger later in that thread you see that the problem is caused by corrosion and as such I believe it is very similar to the timing belt: give it enough time and if will very likely fail at some point. However, if I do not change the timing belt in the next 15 years it does not mean that it will certainly fail within that period.
     
  17. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #17 vrsurgeon, Jul 4, 2017
    It's your money. If you came to this thread to "justify" your decision.. then I hope it has.

    Per all the above.. what were the numbers? If normally 1 per year break, then having 3 per year is ALOT. With 16,000 cars delivered, if 10 explode per year that's 0.0625% of the entire fleet.

    It's your money. There's always something to worry about on these cars. The funny thing is so many Ferrari owners will worry about their cars and spend thousands on needless repairs over servicing them (which opens the possibility for repair associated failure: electrical lines becoming loose or nuts not being tightened enough)..
    yet they don't give a rats about their BMWs or Mercedes. Just as likely to fail and just as expensive to fix. I don't get it.
     
  18. ChrisW1

    ChrisW1 Formula 3

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    #18 ChrisW1, Jul 5, 2017
    I indeed don't give a rats about my daily driver BMWs :) Both haven't seen a workshop in three years (I just changed the engine oil on my M3 once myself in that period).

    I think that the difference with a Ferrari is that most people see their daily BMW as something that will depreciate to close to zero value in about ten years and will likely be scrapped within 15 years. A Ferrari is usually only scrapped when it is severely damaged from an accident; it has an 'endless' life and a lot of expected remaining value at any point in time (certainly when properly maintained). It makes a lot more sense to keep a Ferrari in a good condition and not to take gambles on something that could cause substantial damage in the coming years, that it would be for a regular BMW. In a few years the value of a regular BMW wouldn't be that much anyway so if something bad happens in a few years it will not have the same financial consequences. The 'investment decision' when it comes to preventive maintenance for a Ferrari or regular daily driver is therefore IMO incomparable.

    The heat exchanger topic (again) came to my attention after reading the horror story in the Dutch Fchat session; engine overheated, gaskets blown, two liters of cooling liquid coming out of the gear box before they saw any oil coming out. I was therefore indeed in a way looking to justify the decision to replace the heat exchanger and in that sense it is good to read from some of the replies above that I will not be the first to change the heat exchanger as a preventive measure.

    I certainly do not intent to do preventive maintenance on many parts in my Ferraris, but it seems to me that the heat exchanger on the 360 is something like the MK1 headers in the 430 or the diff in the 512TR: ticking time bombs that have the potential to cause significant damage. I fear that it is not too different from a timing belt in a car like the 360 of which almost everyone finds it normal to replace that regularly as a preventive measure. Maybe I'm mistaken and there are specific/special circumstances that led to the failure of just a few heat exchangers that will not ever happen to the significant majority of the heat exchangers, but I've not read why that would be the case.
     
  19. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 tazandjan, Jul 5, 2017
    Heat exchanger failures are almost completely due to lack of maintenance of the cooling system. The additives in coolant break down in 2-3 years (2 years for nitrites) and the system, including exchanger, begins to corrode. Not helped by the fact Ferrari does not provide a recommendation for coolant changes in their maintenance schedules. So you can maintain her by the book, and have your coolant completely without corrosion protection. There are modern extended life coolants with additives that do not break down as quickly, with organic acid technology (OAT) to protect cylinder liners, that theoretically last about 5 years, but very few good ones are on the market.

    So it all comes down to how well the cooling system was maintained. Annual or every 2 year coolant changes, or a switch to a modern extended life coolant with OAT, are the best insurance for exchangers and cylinder liners.
     
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  20. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
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    #20 360+Volt=Prius, Jul 5, 2017
    Chris, it sounds like that little bastard is singing to you like mine did to me. It appears you have already made up your mind so why post for opinions. You seem knowledgeable, and like mine since there are holes in the service records just do what you feel is correct.


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  21. ChrisW1

    ChrisW1 Formula 3

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    #21 ChrisW1, Jul 5, 2017
    The bastard certainly sang to me a few days ago :)

    I've not completely made up my mind yet. My car will likely get some maintenance done to it in a few months time. I will see if that seems a good time to replace the heat exchanger or whether I'll at least wait an additional 1-2 years.
     
  22. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
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    #22 Skidkid, May 9, 2018
    I am going to pop this back to the top. I have had my car for 12 years and it has had regular maintenance, including coolant changes. BUT, I just had a heat exchanger failure. I noticed right away so not a catastrophe but still sucks. I am generally in the camp of change the coolant and don't fix stuff that isn't broken. In my case I had a full service less than a month before the failure and all was well.
    In this case, you really need to keep an eye on the issue because it can happen at any time and prolonged use can lead to expensive repair. ​
     
  23. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran

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    #23 Need4Spd, May 9, 2018
    You mean prolonged use after a failure, right? I agree it seems it can be random and the best thing is to keep an eye out for it. At worst, if you change all the fluids every year, you can’t go more than a year with a failure condition. But if it happens like it did to you shortly after a service, that’s plenty of time to do damage if not caught.


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  24. RedNeck

    RedNeck F1 World Champ
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    #24 RedNeck, May 10, 2018
  25. timwu12

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    #25 timwu12, May 10, 2018
    Matt, can you tell us which silicone hose adapter you ended up using that worked with the heat exchanger?
     
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