Porsche 911 Handling Question

IIRC, the 91-92 type 964's were the first with rear coils.

Also, I think 95 was the first year for all wheel drive.

 

I drive a '69 911S. It has the original narrow early body, a 2.5 liter MFI engine, full racing modified suspension and its been lightened. But it also has no rear fender flares, I run the same size front and rear tires and it has no rear wing (though I do run a ducktail on the track). This is my dedicated track car. According to legend, it should be a demon possessed evil beast that is constantly trying to throw me off the track backwards. I assure you this is not reality!

I have also owned and tracked extensively both a 1988 3.2 Carrera and a 1995 993. I have also owned a number of other 911s over the years.

All the crap about horrible 911 oversteer and the cars breaking away suddenly and without notice is just that: CRAP.

Want to know the truth? Pay careful attention: A 911 when pushed to the limit and driven correctly will UNDERSTEER. Thats right, they push. Most of what you have heard over the years is total baloney and the result of ham fisted, moronic magazine writers being let loose on the track in a car that is far more capable than they are.

A 911 is a car that offers HUGE reward for the driver who knows how to drive. IT also can severly punish the idiot who has no clue. This is the case will ALL 911s. Its true that the latter years are more tame, but they are also much heavier and they just dont offer the amazing steering feedback and throttle response of the earlier cars.

Here is the very brief scoop: The 911 of course has that rear weight bias. This is good.... and bad. Its good because it gives the 911 amazing braking capabilities. Unlike most cars under very hard braking, the 911's rear wheels actually contribute a good bit and the cars have great weight distribution under hard braking giving it a big edge. The bad of course is that one the rear swings past a certain point in an oversteer situation, it is just gone and a spin is unavoidable. This rear engine placement does however give the 911 an uncanny ability to put the power down coming out of corners and thus you can really rocket onto the straights!

But back to the big revelation: a 911 on the limit will in fact understeer. I fight this on my car all the time, and its at its worst in slow speed corners. At an autocross, getting the car to turn in is the big problem. Some guy even put weight up front to try and improve turnin at autocross events. So if your flying into a corner, you turn in, you apply throttle so that by the apex you are at full throttle and if you have done it right you hold full throttle all the way out of the corner and your carrying AMAZING speed.

If however you have braked too late or carried too much speed into the apex.... the car will in fact understeer. You will want it to turn more, but it will not. If you try to force it to turn with the steering wheel, it will plow even worse until the front lets go. At this point is where the ham fisted magazine moron really gets into trouble (actually he has been in trouble since the turn-in but he is only realizing it now). The car is understeering, its not responding to his steering corrections and his attemps have unsettled the car and its making its unhappiness very clear. Its not going where he wants it too, and in that split second he PANICS! So what does he naturally do????

He lifts off the throttle. If he is a real idiot, he even goes for the brake.

This my friend is a big mistake in a 911. Because faster than you can LOOSE, what was once a firmly planted rear end effectively putting down the power is now the front of the vehicle and you are travelling off the road and looking in the rear view mirror to see where you will impact!

The 911 is a great handling car. It is truely amazing in how fast it can be peddled around a racetrack. But it demands to be driven WELL.

In our scenario above, if you have really overcooked it into the corner your choices may be limited. If possible, the best thing is to steer the car off the track going straight ahead. If thats just not possible, the remember this phrase: In a spin, keep both feet in. That means press both the clutch and the brake to the floor and hold them there until the car stops.

With a 911, the key is slowly build up speed through a given corner. Focus on your braking points, a very smooth turn in and smooth power application. Slowly build up to going deeper into the corner and carrying more speed. You will find that the "limit" is not a razor thin margin, its actually pretty wide. As the 911 approaches the limit, it will let you know very clearly because the understeer will rear its head. Then you will begin to learn about steering the car with the throttle. As the car understeers, you can lift the throttle a bit. That will cause the tail to begin to drift out. You then smoothly re-apply power once again planting the rear. In this way you can overcome the initial understeer and in fact point the car using the throttle. Pretty soon, you are doing this without even realising it and your carrying far more speed through and out of the corners.

I hope this has helped. My point is simply to explain that ALL years of the 911 are tons of fun, very fast and they DO NOT bite as long as you have a clue what you are doing. So, whatever 911 you get, just get involved with PCA and sign up for the drivers education events. Then you can really learn how to properly drive the car and all the old silly 911 myths will seem pretty funny.



Terry

 

I have a Porsche 911 story, which I may have told here in the past.

About 20 years ago, I was driving down a four lane highway, in the inside lane, minding my own business, driving my Triumph. Just as I was about to overtake a slow car in the outside lane, a Porsche 911 SCREAMED up beside me on my right, from out of nowhere. I looked over at him, and thought "I don't want this guy on MY tail!", so I slowed down to let him through. In an instant, he shot in front of me, lost control of his car, went over the center line, and struck a big pickup head on, throwing all three people in the Porsche into the middle of the highway, where two of them died. One of them was a bride on her way to her wedding reception, the other was the Best Man. The driver lived.

It's just like they say - I saw it in slow motion. The 911 had its front wheels cranked hard left as he changed lanes, then when he cranked right, the car just kept on going with the rear end swinging around. The impact happened so close in front of me that the front of my car was covered with broken glass.

Witnesses from behind later reported that the Porsche had been weaving in and out of traffic at 80-100 MPH in a 50 zone. I never saw him coming.

I'm sure the guy thought he could handle his 911 at those speeds, but he was wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

Terry,

Thanks for enlightening us on 911 handling. Good to read that you enjoy driving your Porsche the way it was meant to be driven.

 

When did electronic aids go into the car? That may answer your question in part. I had a GT2 for a while, it had a notorious reputation as an animal, but honestly, it was very predictable, and if you couldn't tell that the back end was goin' on ya, you probably wouldn't or shouldn't be driving. Period. It was not unpredictable in the sense that you would know exactly what would happen if you put down too much power too soon; even without the electronic harness (remember, the GT2 was devoid of that), it was still hard to get the car totally bent out of shape on the street. Of course, you would have to be going very very fast to do that, and with modern tires, it still stuck like glue if you drove it smoothly. I suspect part of the reputation came from the early turbos, which had huge lag compared to the modern ones. When they went on boost, they were like a different car.However, given the level of power we get out of even mediocre econ-box cars today, i doubt that you would find this as shocking today....

 

In 1969 Porsche lengthened the wheelbase a bit to reduce the trail throttle oversteer tendancy. This change was a big help.

Starting with the Carrera RS in 1973, Porsche began to flare the rear fenders and run wider rear tires to get more rear grip and thus reduce trail throttle oversteer even more.

The basic 911 rear flare, rear wheel width and overall suspension design was constant from about 1974 to 1989. The base model '74 - '77 911 had no rear flares but the RS and Carrera varients did. Starting in '78 with the 911SC, all 911s had rear flares. Starting in 1984 Porsche offered the Turbo Look option that gave the full turbo body but no turbo engine.

The 964 starting in 1989 offered 4 wheel drive as an option on the Carrera 4. The base 2 wheel drive version also had a redesigned suspension setup utilizing coil overs and better geometry. I beleive the 964 Carrera 4 offered an electronic traction control system. It worked "ok".

The 993 came out in 1995 and was a totally new design for the rear suspension. Of the air cooled cars, the 993 will offer the most "gentle" handling. The 993 Carrera 4 had a mechanical type 4 wheel drive traction control system that was pretty amazing. Everyone said it was much better (and lighter) than the 964 version.

The 996 models had Porsche Stability Management (PSM) as an option. The last 2 DE events I instructed at my student was in a brand new C4S with PSM. The system was pretty amazing at keeping the newbies from getting themselves in trouble. If your really worried about the car being too much for you, PSM might be a good idea. (but not as good an idea as some serious driver training!)

As you can see, the more modern the car the more advanced the suspension design and thus the more "friendly" the handling.

That said.... I can think of no other car in the world more easily hot-rodded than a Porsche 911. You can take pretty much any year 911 and with easily available, reasonably priced aftermarket performance parts transform it into an amazing handling car. Most of the hotrod suspension stuff give you total flexibility. With a good adjustable suspension, you can dial the car to your preferences! I prefer the nose of my car to be pinned and the rear to be a bit loose, so I have my car setup that way (at least as much as I can.... setup is a constantly moving target!)

I hate to answer a question with a question.... but we need more info.

What do you want to use the car for? What is your price range? Tell us that, I can make a suggestion.


Terry

 

Not until you have driven one of the big turbo P racecars do understand the meaning of "standing on the throttle, standing on the brake" The problem for me is that when the tail comes out (oversteer) I always find it easier to straighten out, brake and then resume but the when it understeers I always seem to run out of track. Very good explanation Terry.

 

As a 993 twin turbo owner, the observations made are correct. As stated, what do you want to do w/the car. That should be the question. I turned down water cooled twins (996tt) b/c I felt too detached for the road and its not a everyday driver and will see 4-5 track weekends a year. I want and need the feel and feedback. As a commutor you may want the advanced comfort the 996 models offer. They will also be a bargin as more become available w/the 997s on the way.

 

You need an 84-89 911 Carrera, it sounds like.
Brakes in 911 need no ABS, easy to modulate when in good fettle.
Since mid 75, all 911's are zinc/anti rust, so TONS better than older cars.
Chain tensioners on late Carreras seem to be pretty good.
Late Carrera gearbox (mid 86-89 IIRC) was a good one.
Light car, adequate AC, no OBD1/2
Still torsion bars, easy to fettle.
LOTS of parts, 911's actually do OK with hi miles as long as serviced properly.
Fun to drive. In slow, pour on coals thru corner, hand of God pushes you through. Don't be indecisive. 911's sense weakness
Check PAR, few other places, Pano.
Terry, great description. 911's seem to be very tire and pressure sensitive too. Great winter cars even 2wd.
Miss my old ones. Light, fun. 996 is a loathesome thing. 997 is much better, but 993 is best late car. 72 S, 73 RS M471, 74 RS 3.0. Unrivaled. People yammer abt GT3. No game.
Good luck.

 

I don't view that as a problem! I too much prefer oversteer because you can then use a bit of opposite lock to counter it plus throttle modulation to balance it and thus you maintain your line without having to just get totally out of the throttle. With understeer your only real option is to just slow down until the front end regains grip. Of course slowing down is a bit counter productive on the track!


Scotty....

A budget of $30K coupled with your other needs leads me to 2 choices.

1. A 1995 993. These are great cars. They have good power (272hp) and you can easily chip them and get a sport exhaust and they will push 300hp. The later 993's are OBD II and you cannot tweak them so easily! The 993 has great ABS, air bags, and all the power options. They make very nice daily drivers and they are tons of fun on the track. You can get one for $30K, quite possible one that someone else has already upgraded the suspension and such on!

2. 1988-1989 3.2 Carrera. These late model 3.2's have the G50 gearbox and much improved A/C plus the hydraulic clutch. They are the most refined and well built 911s ever produced. The build quality on these cars is simply amazing. They are tight and solid and they soak up abuse without breaking a sweat. They have decent power, and with a chip/exhaust upgrade you can get 240hp. They weigh about 2800lb and they make great track cars! The hotrodding options on these cars is unlimited and they make excellent PCA club racers. The brakes are very good and you really dont need ABS.


The 993 is a very nice car and it is the faster car. If you were going to use it for a daily driver I would definitely go with the 993. The 993 is also faster around the track, but the driving experience may not be quite as pure as the earlier car. The 993 has power brakes and steering that make the drive easier but detract a tad from the driver feedback the earlier cars gave.


Actually, there is perhaps a better suggestion.

It sounds like you do plan on tracking the car a good bit and perhaps evolving it into a racecar. If you can in fact live with minimal creature comforts.... then buying someone elses hotrod 911 could be a great way to go.

There are tons of hotrod 911s on the market at any given time. For example in this issue of Panorama there is a '74 911 that has been built into a 3.0 Carrera replica complete with a twin plug 2.8 MFI engine, full track suspension, lightweight body panels and interior.... all the neat stuff you would want. I think he was asking $36K. A car like that would be drivable on the street and it would be FANTASTIC on the track!

The early 911s are very light and the steering gives perhaps the best feedback and feel of any production based car. It is telepathic. These lightweight cars also have fantastic brake feel and they are just tons of fun to drive. They are not however "luxurious" by any stretch, but they are built like tanks and they take incredible abuse.

You may want to do some looking around at hotrod 911s. You could find a great car that someone else has already spent $30K on performance upgrades that you get for 20% of cost! You would also end up with a car much faster than a 993 and probably a good bit faster than your 360!



Terry