Pop up headlight motor problem | FerrariChat

Pop up headlight motor problem

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by skl63, Jul 25, 2009.

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  1. skl63

    skl63 Karting

    Dec 13, 2007
    227
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Scott
    Hi,

    the new 456 (97 build GTA) has a lazy left side pop up light. Actually it goes up but not down. The dealer is getting it fixed prior to delivery, but I note that it has been fixed before. It works fine if we give the nylon knob on top of the motor a quick spin to get it started. Any ideas on the problem, apart from suggesting new motors?

    I tried to follow a dead link on a 348 site that suggested a 10c diode fails????

    Thanks Scott
     
  2. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2006
    4,185
    Plantation, Florida
    Full Name:
    Alfredo
    The motors are not expensive to replace, although the dealer might be.
    In your case you may just have a bad contact in the connection or somewhere in the wiring.
     
  3. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,880
    Sonoma, CA
    Sounds like a bad connection. Might want to swap actuators, or check out that part on top of the light. not exactly sure that can be done but it is trouble shooting

    another idea is replace the relay in the fuse box....shouldn't be the issue, but, well, 'can't hoit'

    Sounds like a more localized probelm...I know the weather wrap is daunting to break, but it does sound local.

    don't believe it needs an entire new motor.
     
  4. Mpaul

    Mpaul Rookie

    Sep 13, 2011
    25
    Jacksonville
    Full Name:
    Munish Paul
    did u ever resolve this issue? how
     
  5. Andrew D.

    Andrew D. F1 Rookie

    Jul 6, 2008
    3,979
    Goodwood Ontario
    Full Name:
    Andrew D.
    Had the same on mine when I bought it. Cleaned all the connectors and the mechanical linkages where it swivels. Works perfectly now. Typical of a car that hadnt been used for years.
     
  6. skl63

    skl63 Karting

    Dec 13, 2007
    227
    Melbourne, Australia
    Full Name:
    Scott
    It was fixed prior to purchase. I think they just pulled it apart and cleaned / lubed it. Works fine for last couple of years.

    Scott
     
  7. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
    And should you ever need a new one, look no further than a Volvo 480, they're the same.
     
  8. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,880
    Sonoma, CA
    hello .... that's great news . do you know this personally or are you hearing about this?
     
  9. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
    Their Bosch numbers are identical so that should be enough reason to assume they are... :)
     
  10. auclutch

    auclutch Karting

    Sep 25, 2006
    229
    Seoul, Korea
    had the same problem. lots of wd40 and lube fixed it for good.
     
  11. rkieley

    rkieley Rookie

    Dec 27, 2012
    3
    Hampstead,NH
    Full Name:
    Rich Kieley
    My experience says that there is an insufficient ground to the motor. Jump the current ground wire to the frame or block and see if that solves the problem.
     
  12. Mehl

    Mehl Rookie

    Jan 26, 2011
    27
    Yes, thats correct. But the sides are inverted, i.e. left Volvo 480 is the right one on the 456.
     
  13. Mr Mezzanotte

    Mr Mezzanotte Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2006
    632
    UK
    Got the same issue on my car now - light goes up, but only goes down if I turn the white knob and move it down a little first.

    The motor spins the same way for up or down, and if I time things right after turning it down a little, then turn the lights off quickly, I can get it to go down.

    I've sprayed the motor arm linkage with WD40 to loosen things, and took the white 5 pin connector apart behind the lights and that seemed fine. I will try some electrical contact cleaner in there later today.

    What other connectors exist ? or what else should I try ?

    What is the symptoms for a failing motor ? 100% failed, or just weak to go down (i.e. what I have experienced) ?
     
  14. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
    #14 166&456, May 18, 2014
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
    I fixed one of these motors on my 456 a while ago, it started out intermittently but it quickly progressed to the point the headlight would not go down by itself anymore without the 'jolt'. Problem was a corroded wire which runs through the grey silicone that coats the circular gear housing. In this housing there is a toothed gear that is driven by a worm gear from the motor. On the toothed gear there are contacts so the electronics "knows" in what position the output shaft is. It believe it was one of these contacts that the wire was connecting to. Simply repaired with a newly soldered wire and some new grey sealant. Repair is completely invisible after that and should be as good as a new motor, especially after re-greasing the contacts and gears with lithium grease. It has been working for years already.
    Sorry I did not take pictures...
     
  15. Mr Mezzanotte

    Mr Mezzanotte Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2006
    632
    UK
    ok, I have removed the motor, having loosen the steering fluid reservoir to get it out.

    The brown earth wire is broken - I have repaired it now.

    I try it on the other side and it works fine.

    Move it back to the right side and it goes up only.

    Checked relays - moved 3 relays around, and same issue.

    I'm suspecting wiring break someone else now ? any thoughts ?
     
  16. Mr Mezzanotte

    Mr Mezzanotte Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2006
    632
    UK
    from a Volvo Forum:

    The headlight motors have 5 connections and are basically controlled by two lines: BLUE for up (+12V if headlights ON, connector 56 on headlight switch), RED for down (+12V if headlights are OFF, even if ignition is OFF, connector M on the light switch). The up or down signal is mechanically interrupted after the motor makes 180 degrees.
    The BLUE or RED line (when not mechanically interrupted) is connected to the WHITE line which activates the pop-up relay which feeds +12V to both motors. When the UP or DOWN position is reached, the +12V (WHITE) is interrupted and the pop-up relay connects the motor feeds (GREEN) to GND. The other motor terminals (BROWN) are always connected to GND.

    I'll check this out next I think - unless anyone has any other ideas ?

    Incidentally found the headlight cable trapped underneath the lower stop on the lighting pod, propping it up - so fixed, and now I can't get the stops to move! enough for today I think :-(
     
  17. Mr Mezzanotte

    Mr Mezzanotte Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2006
    632
    UK
  18. Mr Mezzanotte

    Mr Mezzanotte Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2006
    632
    UK
    #18 Mr Mezzanotte, May 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  19. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
    #19 166&456, May 25, 2014
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
    Dig deeper. The motor is broken the way it is, and there don't seem to be parts under the sealant that are very fragile. That is what I did, peel and cut away pieces of sealant until I found the problem. Don't worry about it, the sealant is quite easily replaced later on, I just bought a tube of grey Loctite liquid gasket sealant that was completely identical in consistency (not silicone it seems).
    I am trying to replay in my head what it was I did, I think the breakage was in the area of where that broken wire connects to. And, I believe I cracked open the circular housing by cutting off the aluminum rivets and replacing them with little screws, to clean and re-lubricate the contacts in there.

    Should you screw it up, you can always get a new or used motor (although it seems prices have gone up by a lot, parts vendors must also read Fchat - the market is very small though so I would never overpay for such an item).
     
  20. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,723
    Amsterdam
    #20 166&456, May 25, 2014
    Last edited: May 25, 2014
    PS - here is a Dutch forum about fixing one of these: Koplampmotor werking
    Mine did not look 1/8th as bad but was malfunctioning.
     
  21. Mr Mezzanotte

    Mr Mezzanotte Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2006
    632
    UK

    not convinced its a motor problem - why does it work fine when plugged into the other side ?
     
  22. Mr Mezzanotte

    Mr Mezzanotte Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2006
    632
    UK
    update: based on the fact that the motor works when plugged in the other side, I do not believe its a motor issue at all.

    checking the wiring, I find that I have 12v to the up wire when I ask it go up but only around 2v to the down wire when it goes down

    wiring colours - see text earlierr for operation:

    ground: BLACK/brown
    stop: RED/green
    motor: BROWN/white
    down: GREEN/red
    up: PURPLE/blue

    colours in CAPS at FERRARI loom colours, lower case is Volvo headlight motor colours

    So when my wife turns the headlights full on, I get 12V across the BLACK and PURPLE
    when it goes down I get 12V across the BLACK and GREEN
    (this is the working side)

    on the non-working side, I get 2V across the BLACK and GREEN when I ask it to go down.

    so next thought was Fuses - their is only 1 fuse for both headlights, and it also runs the electrics seats - fuse 2, 25A. checked fine, seats work fine too.

    so next relays:
    there are 3 BOSCH 0332209159 relays all of the smae type:
    1 for both headlights (D), one for right (E) and 1 for left (F) - so this looked like a possibility.
    however all checked out fine when I tested with a battery.

    I haven't got a full wring diagram, has anyone else, please ?
    could this be a ground fault maybe with the fusebox relay socket perhaps ?
     
  23. Mr Mezzanotte

    Mr Mezzanotte Formula Junior

    Aug 22, 2006
    632
    UK
    #23 Mr Mezzanotte, May 31, 2014
    Last edited: May 31, 2014
    ok, so found a 456M electrical section here...

    http://www.ferraridatabase.com/The_Downloads/The%20Documents/Workshop%20Manual%20456M%20only%20section%20L%202%20versions.pdf

    connectors 22A and 2A (the headlight plugs) down wires are joined in the Battery- Front Cables section at S125B - I presume this is a joint plug somewhere ?

    I took a look around, and can't find it - it must be buried somewhere either in the engine bay or behind the fusebox.

    From the S125B takes the 2 down cables (1 from each motor) and then 1 cable then goes to the fuse box.
    So the down wire looks purely like a control wire, rather than a power wire - which is what I think the 'motor' wire is.

    Working on this theory, I've spliced into the green down wire on both connectors, and ran a cable across the car, and hey presto both lights now go down!

    this confirms its not a motor problem, but I have a cabling issue somewhere.

    So, temporary fixed installed, and now able to go out again on dark nights.
    Hopefully I'll find some time to trace the real fault.
     
  24. au-yt

    au-yt F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 13, 2006
    5,834
    Burradoo... Actually
    Full Name:
    Graeme
    FC is a great resource, one of the reasons that my car hasnt been delivered is a recalcitrant head light actuator. reading this is very helfull for the future.Is it generally one side that gives trouble?
     
  25. Lionworks Auto

    Lionworks Auto Formula 3

    Oct 16, 2013
    1,016
    Worthington OH
    Full Name:
    Ed
    #25 Lionworks Auto, Nov 17, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
    Finally had some time to research the headlight motor issue on my 2001 456M today. Took some pix along way. All are 10mm nuts or bolts and with ratchet extenders and universal joint can reach almost everything. Headlight must be up and the power steering reservoir needs loosened/also 10mm nuts. Make sure power is off and just hand crank the lamp up. I learned this the hard way as I had assumed mine wouldn’t operate given it had been a year but it closed on my forearm and wasn’t pleasant ;). Some nice bruise to remind me proper etiquette.

    Definitely seems like the earth wire gets corroded and found true on the right side motor - see pix...cleaned up and have added stabilant 22 and store bought liquid gasket. Drying now and will reinstall tomorrow. They did spin for a quick test at connector and will see true test once back in. Gonna douse everything in lithium grease too...will keep posted. Ed
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