Poor man's Singer vs. original longhood hotrod | FerrariChat

Poor man's Singer vs. original longhood hotrod

Discussion in 'Porsche' started by Omnivore, Nov 28, 2013.

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  1. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    Gentlemen-

    Your considered opinions greatly appreciated.

    I'm going back into 911 land.

    I have the option of a 30k mile 964 sportomatic which I will convert to G50 or 993 6-speed. I could also backdate it to a longhood ala Singer, removing DOT bumpers/mass in the process.

    Or I could go vintage with a converted 912 or fiberglass-bumper G body torsion bar car with a 3.6. or 3.2.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Carsonp

    Carsonp Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2004
    1,423
    Minnesota - NW subs
    Full Name:
    Carson Partain
    interesting. any track use or just a street car?
     
  3. freedomgli

    freedomgli Karting

    Sep 20, 2005
    119
    Washington, DC
    The best choice for you depends on what you want to get out of your Porsche ownership experience. Do you want a very raw, visceral experience? Or do you prefer something with a modicum of modernity yet remains rather extreme by modern car standards? What's your budget? And who is doing the work, you or a qualified specialist?

    IMO backdating 911s is a bit of a fad. If you're going to mod I prefer to stick with something that is more period correct. Therefore, if you really want a 1972 RS style car on the cheap then I'd just start with a 911E.
     
  4. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    16,601
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Full Name:
    Matt F
    I own a 993 and can't imagine going back in time to old suspension systems. The LSA rear suspension is awesome.

    So if I had this mission brief, to build a poor man's singer, I would absolutely start with a 993. Then you could fairly easily add 964 & earlier fenders, lights, hoods, turn signals, chrome pieces and so on, probably all from Pelican Parts. And you would be starting with more power and the right transmission.

    Matt
     
  5. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    Thanks gents.

    A Singer is a back-dated 964, done to the nth degree. So you get coilovers rather than torsion bars.

    Street use is the main application. The fundamental question is small bore/torsion bar vs. big bore lightened/coilovers.

    The other fundamental consideration is big/fat rolling stock vs skinny little wheel/tires.
     
    3604u likes this.
  6. Zxgarage

    Zxgarage Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2011
    638
    MD/ DC area
    Full Name:
    Zack
    Vintage is vintage. Change and it is no longer...
    There is a line when you restomod a car... you cross and you loose the spirit. It may drive better, faster. But one day you may find yourself missing the bad things that in some way made it so fun to drive.
     
  7. Zxgarage

    Zxgarage Formula Junior
    BANNED

    Jan 21, 2011
    638
    MD/ DC area
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    Zack
    There was a retrofitted 964 with a Turbo engine on ebay few days ago...
    sold for under 30K I think.
     
  8. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    Thanks guys. Turbo not in the cards. More rearward weight bias not optimal and nowadays we can make NA motors as powerful without the turbo penalties. 993s are $$ now where I can obtain a 30k mile 964 for mid $30k with a fresh G50, updates and a dialed Rothsport 3.6.
    Good starting point for modding. Glass bumpers, modern shocks, diff, flywheel, gears, etc.
    Or go Singeresque longhood and lose the fat bumpers.
     
  9. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Advising Moderator
    Moderator

    Oct 1, 2008
    38,744
    Huntsville, AL., USA
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    I liked driving my dad's 993, though I felt that the front end was oddly light when cornering quickly and that wasn't confidence-inspiring even though the steering was very responsive. It is a well-maintained example (so springs, shocks, and alignment all good) and had good tires on it, so I think it's just a characteristic of the car. Overall, it's a huge amount of fun - I just wish the front end felt a little more planted when driving enthusiastically. What are the modest solutions to add more front end grip?*

    * Other than putting some bricks in the trunk. :D

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  10. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    Andrew-
    Start with the basics. (Sorry if this is review). In any car, weight shifts are determined by your right foot. In a sensitive, responsive car like a 911, driver inputs are critical. Corner entry should be fast and slightly scary, enough to unhook the rear and start it rotating a bit. Just get it to the apex. Then add enough opposite lock to correct then feed in throttle. Of course lift mid corner in a 911 at your peril. Depends on your skill level.

    If it feels like it's on rails, you're slow. The thing needs to be dancing and sliding to be fast. And you should be perspiring.

    The best, most concise driving tip I've heard came from M. Schumacher:
    "I just try to balance all 4 corners at all times."
    Works for me.

    If it's still understeering, look at tire pressures. Less in front and/or more at the rear.

    Mods? Just mod yourself. Invest in race driving school/training. Then you can wring the neck of anything and work on your skills.

    If you're frightened behind the wheel, your speed had exceeded your skill level and is dangerous.

    Best,
    Matthew
    "The older I get the faster I was."
     
    NeuroBeaker likes this.
  11. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jan 26, 2005
    22,352
    Indian Wells, California
    Full Name:
    Jon
    What he said.

    Actually, the 993 is one of the best cars on the planet in terms of combining some vintage flavor with modern-ish handling and safety (and relatively few e-nannies to drive for you). If anything, that's the go-to sports car for guys who want a DIY driving experience but with some safety and handling updates.

    And, vintage 911s are a scream (sometimes literally) to drive stock or near stock. One of the attractions of them is that there aren't many late '60s or early '70s cars that are actually all that good to drive, so the 911 was a rare exception. With regard to modifying a vintage car to be "better", you sort of lose the plot, as Zx posted.

    Long term, I think you'd want either a vintage 911 or 993 pretty much stock. Anything else you may regret over time.
     
  12. gumbajv

    gumbajv Karting

    Dec 2, 2010
    227
    Turbo not in the cards. More rearward weight bias not optimal and nowadays we can make NA motors as powerful without the turbo penalties.

    Not quite. There are shops pulling 600-800 rwhp out of 930 motors, with little to no turbo lag. Very streetable, and on pump gas. I'm guessing a 3.8 n.a. motor would be in the 400+ h.p. range. When you start increasing the power, whether a n.a. motor or turbo, you start gaining weight with the bigger wheels, tires, and brake.

    A 993 is going to feel very different than a early car, be it stock or modified. You should drive both and see which one you prefer.

    Early stock 911's are a handfull and fun to drive. With some minor mods, competition alignment, slightly bigger T bars, re-valved shocks, they are a real blast and don't lose the vintage feel. If you want to keep the vintage feel, stay with a small displacement motor, say up to 2.8 mfi or carburated motor.

    When I put a 3.2 in our '73 targa it felt more modern than the '73S. It was probably due to the ease in which the motor starts and idles, vs a mfi motor.
     
  13. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
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    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    Absolutely 993 is the ultimate air 911. Not without faults (SAI, valve guides, overall complexity), however. 964 is the bridge from the oldies to 993 and ~$10k less.
     
  14. 09Scuderia

    09Scuderia Formula 3

    Nov 20, 2011
    2,421
    USA
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    Max
    suggest you hop over to early911sregistry and read the thread about the true costs associated with even a middle of the road restoration.

    Hot-rods (singers aside) are the current 'trend' and will eventually be passe. Rodded cars will be restored back to OE.

    If you want a fast, fun 911 hot rod might I humbly suggest a 996GT3 or 997 GT car..?
     
  15. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
  16. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    Thanks. The '6 GT3 def. on the radar. Epic car. I'm leaning air cooled though.
     
  17. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    BTW '09, what became of the red M505?
     
  18. jerhofer

    jerhofer Formula Junior

    Jul 10, 2013
    291
    Rockwell, NC
    Full Name:
    Jerry Forthofer
    #18 jerhofer, Nov 30, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2013
    During the last year I did a complete body off restoration on a '64 Corvette. I upgraded it with disc brakes from the later C2 Vette's and installed a Tremec 5 speed tranny. Everything on the suspension was brand new. The result was a wonderful example of a mid year Corvette that, unfortunately, handled like a mid year Corvette. No comparison to my '67 912 with a 3.0 SC motor. What a revelation the 911 must have been compared to other mid 60's cars.
     
  19. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    I can relate. Did a fully chassis rebuild with updated springs and bushings on a '69 L48 roadster. Still truck-like. Then I got my first 911-70T 3L. I saw the light.

    I'm darn close to getting this 964 hotrod candidate. I've concluded a robust, modern car fits the bill. The tip will be replaced with either a G50 or 993 6 speed. Then we'll lighten it with CF panels and remove as much fat as we can.
     
  20. DriveAfterDark

    DriveAfterDark F1 Veteran

    Jan 1, 2007
    9,148
    Norway
    I think the 964 is the best "platform" car of them all. You can start with a stock Carrera 2 and make it look retro hot rod style, and you can also go the other way around with RUF modifications (including a solid turbo "kit"). Build a comfy cruiser, build a track focused car, I think you can all sorts of stuff with that platform.
     
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  21. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    16,601
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Full Name:
    Matt F
  22. 3604u

    3604u F1 Veteran
    BANNED Silver Subscribed

    Sep 27, 2004
    6,298
    london/singapore/JKT
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    D
  23. 3604u

    3604u F1 Veteran
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    Sep 27, 2004
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    Any Singers total lost ? Would love to buy parts of the car and use it on my C2.

    Singers make ART.
     

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