Poll on Major Service Costs for Mondial in 2012

And must be true...

 

I think Dave hit the nail on the head. Speaking for my car the reason I can walk away with a relatively cheap major bill is because my car was very well looked after by the previous owner. I wanted to have a few things changed due to time not from lack of maintenance from the previous owner and a few items were found that my mechanic felt needed to be changed. I payed a premium when I bought the car but,hopefully I'm expressing this right and it makes sense to you guys, I didn't feel that I was overpaying I felt it was worth every penny like the old commercial says pay now or pay later.
I'm refraining from commenting on the drivability/reliability of the Mondial as I'm still a new owner and haven't put many miles under my belt but I'm planning on using my Mondial as much as I can I'm just going to pay attention to how the car runs,sounds and smells and be aware of any problems.

 

I agree whole heartedly. I am one of the one time servicers. I'm sure I have made many statements that aren't the best. And I agree anything I say should be taken only as a data point. I love brainstorming automotive problems and solving them but I'm not a tech. When I started my service I had read many threads many opinions and many ideas and also relied upon my past and my connections (cel phone). In the end I took all the data points and used my judgement. I tried to minimize the risk as much as possible and there were a few tasks in the service where I would let something sit for days while I worked on other projects and thought about the problem and did research. Ultimately I did my own service for two reasons. 1. It was time and the car deserved to be taken care of in a timely manner. 2. I could not afford to have it done by a competent tech. I really would have liked to have the first service done by a professional. In the end it was a great experience that enhanced the ownership experience. I don't want anyone to think I've done everything to my car. I've had multiple times where something was stuck and I pulled out a tool, put it to the part and thought for a moment, "this could go horribly and expensively wrong" At that moment the car goes to the shop. When it comes to doing ones own work I will not be one to say "it's just a car/nuts and bolts" It is, but the costs of making minor errors is significantly higher than on a chevy where a new longblock can be delivered for under $2K. Again, I'm no authority to back up Daves comments, I'm a data point. Having said that, I value everyone who does their own as I'm always interested in more datapoints for my own wrenching.

In the end, I love cars, all of them. The current market value opened my eyes to this world and I nervously stuck my toe in. If I had known in advance how much it would have cost me I never would have taken the step. All I can say at this point was thank goodness I didn't know because looking back I don't regret a moment or a dollar spent.

PS, if I suddenly disappear from this place it's because I destroyed my car myself and am too embarrassed to face the music.

 

I think we are all adults here and have to use common sense and be responsible for our own actions and know our limitations.

 

Agreed with all. I am not the least bit embarassed to say I have learned from suggestions made on this site by fairly low time owners. Many of those ideas are quite clever and well thought out. If you break something Dirk, it will be done in an effort to raise the bar, no shame in that at all. Not something you want to hear from a F car tech, but I have failed far more than I suceeded when I am trying to improve things... its how we learn and advance these cars and processes.

My whole point is the break the chain of bad data and raise the bar. Throw a belt on it but dont call it a Major Service, its replacing a rubber band ONLY. Learn what the cars NEED and deal with that. Meet and start a relationship with someone you Really Trust for the jobs you dont want to do yourself but insist those jobs are done right ONCE and then move on to the next system to sort out. You will be amased how reliable this model can be made to be.... if it is done properly.

 

This thread has become inspirational and eye opening. To assist in home service (on all of our vehicles) we bought a four-post lift and I was pumped to do the belt. Unfortunately, unexpected non-ferrari expenses caused us to burn through the Ferrari Fund. I really wish I had the time and money to give the car everything she deserves but I have developed a close bond with the car. WE have come to an agreement...she promises to be ok and I promise to give her a showroom service in the next few years. Can you trust an Italian?

dave

 

Really???? Yeah!!!! I need you back as my Mondial brother badly. Actually, everyone does.

Totally agree.


See you tomorrow buddy.

 

Or you can use the college fund and start our little ones to be Ferrari techs with some on the job training after school. Sounds like Dave Helms is living large in Colorado. .

 

I second that, after the drive down from CO to TX. and drives thereafter.. It is in the shop less than my Subaru!

I also tried to pick up another Mondi, in fact made my wife an anniversary card with goodman's car on the front...

She wanted the house painted instead... :-(

Don't tell anyone, Mondis are the steal of the century!!!!

H

 

Well, I'm about to break the chain. My t-coupe is the one Dave Helms was referring to as almost a parts car because I was thinking the old way (what's the value of the car relative to the repair costs), but not anymore. The hell with it I'm getting everything fixed in the engine and transmission and this time it will be done correctly. In the past I assumed and trusted but got burned badly...not again. I have completely new genuine Ferrari leather interior and carpet including a suede headliner, a 2 month old beautiful paint job, and now I will have an engine that kicks ass. I can't wait! Now it's someone else's turn to break the chain.

 

Jenni, our youngest, has found the passion and enjoys doing this.

I hate to break this to you but... a Mondial 3.2 Cab. can be purchased for less that a used VW and hardly amounts to living large! When you see me pull down the Leaping Lizard sign and hang the Toyota/Honda sign outside the door.... THEN I will be living large and can afford to buy cars that need nothing. This is what floors me, the purchase price has been driven through the floor.... this nonsense must stop, it is a Caused problem, not a design problem.

I genuinely enjoyed my driving time with BadDogg's car, only downside is Kris didn't get to experience it but... she will. Since these cars came off the show floor new, this was the very first time I had the opportunity to drive one simply for pleasure, "Starter Ferrari" my butt!

So far on Tmans car, every single problem except TWO has been a CAUSED problem. Caused by hideous workmanship, total lack of attention to detail, total lack of product knowledge and...... Based on the service history of the car and the supporting paperwork, "Budget Repairs" were Never a factor.... there was no budget. Of the two exceptions, one was general maintenance related and the other a TSB, ignored by numerous high level Pro's that worked all around the problem area but did nothing to deal with it. By the end of work on Friday we sent Tman home filthy dirty BUT.... we identified all of the problems and it is all reverseable, we can fairly easily make this car better than when it was delivered new. Luck.... I am OK with that, and this week luck played a major role in the outcome of a car.

I have no idea what this thread was all about other than to beat the Major Service prices even lower. Soucorp, you do your own work... the prices of a "service" should make little to no difference to you. It is time for the owners to wise up and get off this "Major Service" thought on old cars, it is only hurting you and the car by justifying work that 'needs' to be done. When this long list of fluff is done, there is no budget left to do what REALLY needs to be done... and the car suffers. There are no two "Services" done the same, never were, never will be... why should anyone expect the prices to be the same?

 

Dave

You were involved in a lot of my "major" service, parts and advice. Do you feel I did the right thing and had everything sorted the way it should have been? I spent a great deal of $ on the project and whole lot of time, I would like to think it was money and time well spent. I never had a budget on either.

 

Recently had a major for the Mondial T here in UK with the following work;


348 Mondial T

1. Drain fuel tanks / Remove Engine & Gearbox
2. Remove/ Clean / Calibrate Bosch fuel injectors
3. Cambelt service inc. Cam Seals / O Rings
4. Fit New Cambelt Tensioners (Hill Engineering)
5. Valve Clearances
6. New gaskets
7. Water thermostat
8. New Fuel Rails
9. New Header Tank (bespoke aluminium unit)
10. New Water Pump
11. Repair Alternator
12. Red line gearbox oil
13. Strip, paint, bake cam covers
14. Renew cam cover bolts
15. Renew Fuel Lines / Jubilee clips
16. Clean firewall
17. New NGK Spark Plugs
18. Engine Oil & Filter
19. Engine Coolant
20. Refit Engine & Gearbox
21. Refuel / Check / Roadtest

Cost was £3,300 GBP, and runs so sweetly now. These cars are great !

 

"By the end of work on Friday we sent Tman home filthy dirty"

As Dylan said, "His clothes are dirty but his hands are clean"...I never felt better about going home dirty, doing an honest day's work, and having piece of mind about my car that I didnot have 2 days ago.

My thoughts on all of this after this past week is that for all you DIYers, if you really know what you're doing and don't cut corners then good for you 'cause you're way ahead of the game. For the rest of us we have to remember dealers are dealers and whether it's Ferarri or Chevy they need to get them in and get them out. The Ferrari dealers cannot give the kind of customer service that a passionate (something that's SUPPOSED to be synonymous with the word Ferrari) independent shop can give. It takes way too much time that they cannot recoup and again it needs to be gone so the next guy can get in. As for the independents one has to look very carefully at those too because if you cannot identify the passion they should have for the marque then you need to steer clear. Not an easy proposition I know but worth your time in gold to really search it out. I'm just sorry every Ferrari owner doesn't have a Scuderia Rampante next door to him/her because it would make Ferrari ownership sooooo much better. While I had a few down minutes on Friday I talked to Jenny about her career choice and the passion (there's that word again) that she has for what she is doing and for the marque came through in spades. I for one am very very glad.

 

That is the nicest compliment I've heard today! Thanks buddy!

 

I cant comment on that because my eyes were not on the car. There is NO substitute for eyes on / hands dirty as how something sounds and feels seat of the pants, is a major factor in making these right. Drawing conclusions based on snippets of data and a few pictures, as many do, is wrong from the word Go. It gives you thoughts to discuss, ideas to throw around, but basing a reaction on that alone is flawed. Dan's eyes were on the car and his hands were dirty, he is the only one that can answer that question.

I see all the problems Dan posted pic's of and the issues he discussed on here of your car, and all I could think is 'yup, there's another one Cherry Picked together with VERY important points completely ignored in the past'. Every car that comes in is that way now and the owners are largely in part to blame for it because of what they demand be done. Anyone that doesn't think that in long term, depth product knowledge is a requirement on these cars, is doomed to repeat the same mistakes made throughout. Its the smallest details and clues (I am talking 10X magnification to see it) that point to what these cars actually need. If its already falling off... its already too late. The key to cost effective servicing is to predict the failures based on history and deal with everything when they are apart.

Blindly following a 20+ year old recommendation list, packed with profitable Cherry Picking Fluff... get real, fix what needs to be fixed, stop the "what does a Major cost"... there is no such thing, that only worked when they were 5 years old. Use these Major intervals to get together with your TRUSTED tech and discuss what he/she feels the car really needs. Continuing to follow "the major" crap is what is destroying these cars... beat the price down further and the blinders get pulled in tighter because the shops will only work just so lean and still include the fluff that most demand. That statement only holds true for shops that give a damn and have in depth product knowledge, there are those that will pluck the profits and throw them back together without hesitation, there are bad apples in every field. After being bashed to hell on here for a "22K Major Service" on a 355 years ago, we now make 2 repair orders when a service is started, one for a major and the other for what the car REALLY needs. The one for the major I can tell you EXACTLY how long it will take and EXACTLY what it will cost if I put on the DARK shades and go brain dead.... where's the value in that? "I demand a written estimate of the exact costs my major will end up at"......... Hey, thanks for stopping by, I cant help you, I have cars to fix! Arrogant? No. Honest? Yes.

Perfect one small area or system, to the best of your ability and budget, and then move to the next only when the budget allows for it. Cosmetic's...... sorry guys, that is the last area to deal with, a beautiful car that sits in the garage is an ornament... not a Ferrari. Painting and detailing engine parts has a very positive function, its not just making it pretty. You sit and clean / brush / paint a little area, and you do it with your eyes open, as that is the time the small problems show themselves. It also is a sign of pride in ones workmanship but has NO PLACE in the game plan until everything mechanical is done... that really needs to be done.

A lot of rambling Bullshlt but it is something that needs to be said before these cars are all gone and I miss getting my own.

 

Ah yes, but you wife will choke me!

First question is why did you have down time... there's work to do? Aside from that, you made my day. There is one over joyed oldman that is quite proud of her efforts and passion. There will be someone left when I go toes up that can fix a Motronic and still sinc/balance a 6 carb Daytona. I made a promise to those that intrusted me with the fine points when I was learning, to pass the knowledge on so it isnt lost. I intend to keep that promise.... to my own kids only makes it even sweeter.

 

I've found that on a lot of the older cars, they need all of the "other" things whether "we" like it or not (that includes the mechanics and owners). So the trouble becomes that when a checklist estimate is agreed upon, the owner feels they know otherwise and/or isn't prepared to take on that financial burden when things get heavy.

It's going to cost someone money to make the car right. If the owner doesn't agree and buckle up, the shop ends up eating it. That turns into a bad situation for a number of reasons, either the client and car is "fired" or someone with less respect for themselves hacks it back together and rolls it down the road or even worse, the shop is perceived as incompetent and the job goes over budget, the car gets butchered and the owner has a negative perception of the transaction.

I've probably learned this lesson the hard way, trying to be everyone's best friend a couple times. But unfortunately it's the truth of the matter.

Some cars were serviced well enough that a simple job can be done, and the car leaves with a prioritized check list and a game plan. It seems that a vast majority at this juncture in time need a lot more than one expects to even get out the door in a respectable manner.

I don't enjoy financing people's Ferrari repairs for them any more. I like to do my best to preserve the marque and be able to by lunch the next day.

In my opinion, this is probably the more important matter of this topic than black and white numbers.

 

This entry reminds me of getting my axle boot replaced by a shop away from home. They gave me a price range depending on variables. I was able to be relatively confident that it would go well because I'd replaced all the axle bolts that were in any way compromised. When I'd pulled the axles 1.5 years earlier I had to cut a couple bolts off and many were badly hogged out. In the end the repair came in under budget and they commented on the fresh bolts in there. Multiply that times all the bolts and other weird issues on these cars and it still doesn't give us a true concept of what the techs are against on some of these old cars. All these issues add to the cost of repairs.

There is a BMW motorcycle dealership near Seattle that has hourly labor rates posted. It was $10 or 15 higher per hour if the bike was older than a cutoff date, I think mid or late 80's. I understood exactly why too. Old machines tend to have had many owners and many repair people over their lifetimes. Many more variables on the older machines.

 

+1. I have to say the biggest eye opener I had was buying my Testarossa. As I've posted in other threads, the car was owned by the same wealthy individual throughout its life. It was transported to Algar every year with instructions to do whatever the car needed. Looking through 26 years of service records, it was evident that the continued diligence throughout the years had paid off as his service bills were very reasonable. When I got her, we did the full major. I braced for a massive bill. Quite the contrary, because of the exhaustive maintenance the car had received throughout the years, we came in under budget, allowing me to spend the money designated towards surprises on further preventative maintenance.

Its hard to explain this to the uninformed, but if you are diligent with these cars, do not cut corners, and are proactive in your approach to maintenance, in the long run it will be cheaper to own these cars than to wait till something really big and expensive breaks.

 

To your point Joe, I agree on how diligent service can/will pay off in the long run. That said, a new set of standards must be made to assure a minimum level of expectations is met, as few will continue to maintain a car to this level.

In the case of the "T" I am currently involved in, the same documented 'no holds bared' maintenance plan was in effect throughout its past ownership life. Being as a exceptionally well maintained example was found and purchased, the current owner carried forward that same sense of pride of ownership in how he maintained the car in the half dozen years he has owned it. That pride of ownership has been tested to an extreme over the last few years while chasing ghosts and gremlins and I will add that it also tested my patience to an extreme. After a few years of being able to enjoy the car in a fairly rewarding way, where the expectation of making it back home became something of a forgone conclusion... then came the time to deal with general maintenance issues... the belt. That cant be so bad, it was maintained to the highest level throughout its life.... "The car runs fine and has no problems", but that was based on the owners one reference point, his own car. After ALL of the repairs are done, we will see how well that statement holds water.

I deleted the rest of this reply and will just sum it up by saying 'Trust', but don't offer that out freely, make sure it is earned. Had the owner not been present at the shop to see what we have been finding on this car, no one would, or could be expected to believe it given how the service records of this car read. Lack of in-depth product knowledge and pure profit Cherry Picking is what I suspect led to where we are with this car. Upside here is we will be able to turn it around as the problems were caught before the Big Bang theory was tested. All of the extremely critical areas tested out in near perfect condition... it will be an exceptional example once the janitorial work is done. I only consider it janitorial because others have been right here before me and either ignored the problems or didn't know enough to even look for them.

I have asked the question in a number of other threads in different sections on this site.... "What does a Major Service include?" You cant define a cost until you can define what it includes. Product knowledge, being able to predict what will be found when all the rocks are turned over. Its long past over due that a new list of expectations is made to define what a Service should include. That new list should be based on History of the model and its specific problems, not Predictions of what will be needed as the cars age, as is currently being used. Change how these cars are viewed and serviced and then forward progress can be made.

 

I like the old sign "Shop Labor $40/hour, $50 if you worked on it first"

Dave