Piston ring gaps on a 87k mile engine | FerrariChat

Piston ring gaps on a 87k mile engine

Discussion in '348/355' started by Dino Chang, Nov 1, 2013.

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  1. Dino Chang

    Dino Chang Guest

    Dec 29, 2012
    772
    #1 Dino Chang, Nov 1, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
    I am posting this for the interested and intrigued. There isn't much on the net regarding in internals of a high mileage engine, let alone stripping and rebuilding.
    This is the first time that I have stripped and rebuilt a 355 engine down to the crank ect. Last month I measured the piston ring gaps of all the old rings removed from the pistons and inserted into the respective bores for measurement. The bores are still in very very good condition saying how high the miles are on this engine. FYI the NIKASIL looks perfect.
    What struck me was how wide the oil ring gaps were compared to the compression rings. Also how similar the 2nd compression ring gap was to the Top compression ring..
    From my experience in rebuilding past engines, I always had the 2nd ring gap slightly wider than the top ring. Also the oil ring always had the smallest gap.
    Also if you notice that the second bore has a ring gap of 0.80mm compared to the average of between 0.30-0.40mm.
    Question for anyone who knows. How can a piston ring gap be so wide compared to the other rings in the same bore? Factory mistake maybe? How can a ring gap grow when the ring bellow does not? FYI all rings were measured in two seperate parts of there perspective cylinders (20mm from the top and 30mm). Can anyone with knowledge shed light on this?
    So for anyone interested and for the record for whomever may search in the future, here they are.

    FRONT

    Left bank. -- Right bank

    Top 0.40mm. --- Top 0.40mm
    2nd 0.30mm. --- 2nd 0.30mm
    Oil 0.80mm. --- Oil 0.80mm


    Top 0.80mm. --- Top. 0.50mm
    2nd 0.35mm. --- 2nd. 0.40mm
    Oil. 0.80mm. --- Oil. 0.80mm


    Top 0.40mm. --- Top 0.35mm
    2nd. 0.25mm. --- 2nd. 0.25mm
    Oil. 0.80mm. --- Oil. 0.80mm


    Top. 0.35mm. --- Top. 0.35mm
    2nd. 0.30mm. --- 2nd. 0.22mm
    Oil. 0.80mm. --- Oil. 0.70mm
     
  2. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,826
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Cylinder number 2 and 5 seems to be the ones that get wipped out first on these engines. You cannot tell by looking at the liner if the coating is ok. Replace the liners, else your new rings will not seat correctly. Don't ask me how I figured that one out..
     
  3. Dino Chang

    Dino Chang Guest

    Dec 29, 2012
    772
    #3 Dino Chang, Nov 1, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
    What about the ring gaps mate? Why would the oil gaps be that much? Also why would the top ring have a large gap and the 2nd ring bellow be so small? Surly if the coating was so worn would the 2nd ring gap also not be a lot wider than it is? I mean the top ring on #2 is 0.80mm and the 2nd immediately bellow it in the same bore is only 0.35mm.
    The bores tolerances all fall within WM specs. Thanks for your input Tbakowsky.
     
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  4. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,826
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    I can't really offer a good reason. It is a bit puzzleing why this would be. What is the width of the ring in comparison to the others?
     
  5. Dino Chang

    Dino Chang Guest

    Dec 29, 2012
    772
    #5 Dino Chang, Nov 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have just looked through my pile of notes and i found the ring thickens measurements.
    Also i have a picture of the 0.80mm top ring along side 0.40mm top ring in the bores.
    I have marked were the measurements were taken from in red.
    The 0.80mm ring was measured via a digital micrometer and was measured in 3 separate places on each ring. The value was 3.40mm in the middle and 3.45mm near the tips.
    The second ring with the 0.40mm gap was measured 3.51mm in the middle and 3.55mm towards the tips.
    But what took me aback was all the oil ring gaps, and yet the car never burned oil or smoked.
    The engine strip was due to me investigating why the oil and water was mixing and had nothing to do with the running of the engine. I had already replaced the engine with a used one i bought. So while i was investigating and was in there i decided to replace all the bearings rings and seals ect. I found some very interesting things during the strip, like washes missing from the oil jets at the bottom of the bores. little things like that made me smile.The cars engine has never been striped sinse it left the factory. Any way i digress.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  6. Jonny042

    Jonny042 Rookie

    Dec 20, 2008
    31
    Top ring gaps are always a little bit more than bottom - more than one factor I am sure but thermal expansion is probably the biggest reason.

    The relatively large oil ring gaps are interesting. Probably not really imortant in terms of power or reliability.

    The .080 top ring is an anomaly - if you don't have bore gauges to accuratley measure your bores you could try other rings in the same bore in the same location. If they measure .080 you know the "problem" is the bore, not the ring. Vice versa if the ring measures the same it is that ring alone. Which would be strange. Well, so would one bore going awol, too.

    Interesting thread! Keep it coming!
     
  7. Jonny042

    Jonny042 Rookie

    Dec 20, 2008
    31
    Oh and PS the finish on the top of the block looks a bit... imprecise. Perhaps the car had a poor head gasket replacement job during it's lifetime (perhaps for guides). That's really the only place oil and water will mix. Or try, I suppose.
     
  8. Jonny042

    Jonny042 Rookie

    Dec 20, 2008
    31
    Or have them re-coated?
     
  9. Dino Chang

    Dino Chang Guest

    Dec 29, 2012
    772
    #9 Dino Chang, Nov 1, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
    No top rings have a smaller gap than the 2nd ring.
    Also if you read what I wrote correctly, I said that the bores were checked and are within WS manual specs. The machine shop did this.
    Also the 0.80mm is not an anomaly, here's one with a 4.5mm gap, that's 5 times what I have. (see photos) http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/348-355/125234-f355-ferrariad-compression-numbers-found-2.html
    It's just that this isn't generally seen because very few strip these engines out side being a pro.

    No it's not. I sourced the problem to a perished cylinder seal, which has now been replaced as a set.

    Another option bore permited, hone them using a NIKASIL Flexhone. Done very successfully by my self as well as other Ferrari engine builders on here. These pictures are over 5-6 weeks old now, a lot has happend since them. The engine is now rebuilt.
     
  10. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
    17,743
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    John!
    Don't worry, oil ring gaps are always larger and their gaps really don't matter nearly as much anyway. I see nothing out of the ordinary with any of those ring gaps for such an engine with such mileage. Also remember, these engines are not blue printed engines, the rings show up at the factory stamped to fit a certain bore size and in they go, no gap filing for oversized rings happening there.

    It's not uncommon to pull a set of NPR rings for say an 81mm bore for example, and find the oil ring gap is .005"+ or so larger than the second ring which itself is .003"+ larger than the top ring.


    If I heard the rumor correctly, I believe there were some F40 engines that actually were blue printed for specific clients. I am not sure if this was done for other production engines but I'm sure to a certain extent it was, I just don't think it was at all a daily practice with a large portion of the engines meaning gap irregularities with an older higher mileage engine isn't the end of the world.
     
  11. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
    17,743
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    John!

    I've never tried flex honing nikasil but I have heard that company make specific nikasil flex hones. I think if you have the liners measured for any hour-glassing or taper and they measure up as serviceable then -if it's your engine- go for it. I don't think I would try it for a customer engine but it might but worth a go on your own.
     
  12. Dino Chang

    Dino Chang Guest

    Dec 29, 2012
    772
    Thanks for you constructive input. In the link I posted the very last post was by Rifledriver whom also said that good results can be had using Flexhone on NIKASIL bores. I have also read that another guy on here uses the Flexhone on Nikasil bores and IIRCC he works for Norwood. So yea it's a calculated decision.
    Having bought a new set of piston rings, i had to deglaze the bores or the rings would not have taken.
    I had to file each ring to the corrects size. Interesting what you said about the piston ring fit from the factory. That makes sense.
     
  13. Jonny042

    Jonny042 Rookie

    Dec 20, 2008
    31
    I stand corrected - you're right, and I should have read more closely. I was just excited to see someone actually doing their own work on one of these engines and sharing. If the cylinders measured out, that's fantastic - especially considering the (relatively) high mileage.

    So I am assuming you got new rings for the engine - were they file-fit, or pre-gapped? How did the crank and rods measure out? Did you have to re-size the big ends or re-bush the small ends? If so, any special considerations with the Ti rods?

    Thanks again for sharing.
     
  14. Dino Chang

    Dino Chang Guest

    Dec 29, 2012
    772
    PM sent Jonny.
     

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