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Pirelli

Discussion in 'F1' started by TheMayor, Jun 30, 2013.

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  1. SimCity3

    SimCity3 F1 Rookie


    The FIA is afraid of many things, including upsetting Toto Wolff
     
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  2. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    Get both !
     
    classic308 likes this.
  3. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    'Red Bull possibly played with tyre pressure, FIA never checks during races'

    https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/86512/red-bull-possibly-played-with-tyre-pressure-fia-never-checks-during-races.html

    Saturday there were rumours that Red Bull Racing were to blame for the crash of Max Verstappen at the Baku City Circuit. The Austrian team would have played with the tyre pressures and that would have cost the Dutchman his head. The Italian branch of Motorsport.com confirms the rumours that tyre pressure can be manipulated.

    Since the British Grand Prix in 2013, Pirelli has added a rule to the regulations that requires F1 teams to observe a minimum tire pressure at the start of the race. The level of tyre pressure is determined by Pirelli, depending on the circuit.

    Before the start of the race on Sunday, the FIA will randomly check if the teams meet this requirement. The officials of the international motorsport federation are also allowed to visit the garages of the teams during the Grands Prix to check if the tyre pressures of the other available sets of tyres comply with the regulations.

    Red Bull themselves at fault?
    However, according to the aforementioned medium, the problem is that this check is currently carried out very rarely, so little in fact that there are those in the paddock who claim they have never experienced it. It could be a signal that teams are going below the minimum tire pressure in order to get more grip. It is possible that Red Bull Racing (with Verstappen) and Aston Martin (with Lance Stroll) have been fiddling with this and are to blame for the crashes.


    Max Verstappen was very clear on Ziggo Sport after his DNF in Azerbaijan. He didn't have much faith in an investigation of Pirelli: "I already know the outcome. That's hard to accept. But it will have to do with 'debris' again." Pirelli and the FIA are expected to release the final investigation report within 48 hours.
     
  4. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    It's plausible......but Strolls crash was also due to left rear failure. Nonetheless both incidents being investigated by Pirelli.
     
  5. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
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    Italian press rushing to defend Italian tyre supplier. Who would have thought it possible?!
     
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  6. sp1der

    sp1der F1 Rookie

    Jan 10, 2009
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    I believe the major shareholder in Pirelli is Chinese
     
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  7. sp1der

    sp1der F1 Rookie

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    And the reality is every season there are major problems with the Pirelli tyres that never seem to get fixed.
     
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  8. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Pirelli is a subsidiary of ChinaChem, a Chinese state-owned company, so is totally owned by the Chinese.
     
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  9. classic308

    classic308 F1 Veteran

    Jan 9, 2004
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    Tire pressures should be checked by pirelli reps frequently, especially amongst the front runners.
     
  10. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    They are.

    Pirelli thinking that, with everything the FIA checks so frequently and so tightly, they'll simply ''forget'' to do the tyres (one of the easiest to check at that)?! They even check fuel temperatures ffs. Especially with how much time can be won running softer pressures. Ridiculous assumption of Pirelli.
     
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  11. simpen

    simpen Formula Junior

    Jun 14, 2016
    291
    I don't believe a tire manufacturer wants or should need to get involved with applying sporting regulations. Pirelli, despite all the crap they get for it, just delivers a tire with performance characteristics asked by FIA. It's not like Pirelli just does what they want and Michelin or Hankook would create a very different compound.

    And for Red Bull pointing fingers in the press blaming others... well what else is new?
     
    375+ and DF1 like this.
  12. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Tyre pressures in the spotlight as F1 awaits Pirelli Baku report
    By: Jonathan Noble
    Jun 15, 2021, 6:08 AM
    Scrutiny over Formula 1 teams playing around with tyre pressures looks almost certain to increase in the wake of the failures that marred the Azerbaijan Grand Prix.

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    While F1 is still waiting for an official answer from Pirelli and the FIA over the causes of the blowouts that put Lance Stroll and Max Verstappen out of the Baku race, the topic of tyre pressures and teams trying to get around the limits has become a talking point again.

    F1 teams have long known that there is a pace advantage from running tyres at low pressures, so there has always been an incentive to try to find ways to keep the Psi down.

    However, low pressures can put tyres under incredible structural strain as the construction deforms more under load, and too much of that can trigger problems.

    Throw together a combination of the current high downforce, super heavy F1 cars with ultra low tyre pressures - plus potentially teams taking liberties - and that can be a recipe for trouble.

    One way for Pirelli to head off the risk of such threats has been to increase the minimum starting pressures that teams have for the tyres, but teams don't like that because its means lost lap time.

    Teams know that the best way to extract performance is to be bang on the limit when the tyre pressures are measured, and then be under it when the car is out on track and needing to perform.

    The minimum starting pressure requirement was famously thrust in to the spotlight when Mercedes was investigated after its victory in the 2015 Italian Grand Prix when Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg's tyres were found to be under the 19.5PSi limit when they were measured before the start.

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    Lewis Hamilton, Mercedes AMG F1 W06

    Photo by: Sutton Images

    In the end the team was cleared, with the FIA satisfied the tyres had been at the correct pressure when first fitted to the cars, but the Psi had dropped as the tyres cooled on the grid.

    What that brief controversy did highlight, however, was how much tyre pressures can move around from when tyres are first fitted to the cars to when they are actually running on track.

    All the checks and procedures that have been in place since firm guidelines were laid down in 2015 have been about tyres when they are first fitted.

    So the checks take place just before a car leaves the garage, or shortly before the start of the race on the grid.

    That, of course, leaves an opportunity for teams that can reduce the pressure after such checks have taken place to potentially gain an advantage.

    Plus, not every tyre can be checked when first fitted to the car, especially when it comes to those tyres put on during pitstops in the race.

    One tactic used in the past was for teams to use excessive temperatures with their tyre blankets, so they would end up heating the air inside the tyre. The hot air would expand and increase the pressure for when the measurement was taken, prior to the tyre then being allowed to cool and the pressure dropping for when the tyre was needed.

    This tactic prompted the FIA to step in and put in place a maximum tyre temperature allowance for the blankets to ensure teams weren't tricking the system this way.

    But, F1 teams are immensely clever and it appears that, with clear performance on the table from being able to lower tyre pressures after the checks, they may have found other ways to get below the limits.

    And the likelihood is that the whole grid is doing it, not just one or two of them, as F1 teams do not spend hundreds of millions of pounds a year to leave performance gains on the table.

    As Hamilton remarked in the wake of the Monza 2015 controversy: "We run to the bare minimum, all the time it is above but as low as we can go. If it's 20, we'll be 20.1 or 20.001, whatever. It's what F1 is all about."

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    The damaged car of Lance Stroll, Aston Martin AMR21

    Photo by: Mark Sutton / Motorsport Images

    The difficulty in judging what teams are up to right now is that the teams are in charge themselves of all the data regarding their tyre pressures.

    So, if they are getting around the regulations by getting the tyres under the minimum starting pressures, there is no way for the FIA and Pirelli to have reliable independent data to verify it.

    There is also nothing in the regulations stopping them doing it, as the current rules only stipulate the minimum starting pressures, not minimum running pressures.

    Interestingly, for 2022, F1 is introducing mandatory standard tyre pressure and temperature monitoring devices that will give the FIA and Pirelli the exact insight they need to better judge the situations.

    In a recent amendment to the 2022 technical regulations, Article 10.7.3 states: "All cars must be fitted with tyre pressure and temperature monitoring sensors which have been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to a specification determined by the FIA.

    "Wheel rims and tyre pressure and temperature sensors should be marked according to the corner colouring and labelling scheme defined in the Appendix to the Technical and Sporting Regulations."

    While such a move should bring some clarity to what teams are doing, in the short term it is unclear what the response will be.

    Next month, F1 is returning to the British Grand Prix, with the high-speed Silverstone swoops known to be one of the most punishing tracks of the year for Pirelli tyres.

    A repeat of last year's British GP dramas, where a number of tyres failed in the closing stages, will be something that Pirelli will want to avoid.

    So one option may well be for Pirelli to have to play things safe and increase the minimum starting pressures far beyond what is ideal, knowing full well that teams will likely try to work their way around it.

    Alternatively, the events of Baku may well be enough for the FIA to increase its checking of what teams are up to on grand prix weekends – with a greater scrutiny on all the tyre sets being used.

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/tyre-presssures-in-the-spotlight-as-f1-awaits-pirelli-baku-report/6570971/?nrt=54
     
  13. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    +1 completely agree
     
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  14. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    PIRELLI: In each case, this was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed.

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    Pirelli concludes investigation into Baku F1 tyre failures

    Pirelli has concluded the tyre failures that affected Max Verstappen and Lance Stroll at Formula 1’s Azerbaijan Grand Prix were likely caused by how their teams were running the tyres.

    Both drivers suffered left rear blow outs in the Baku race, with the initial suspicion pointing to debris being the cause of the incidents.

    This theory was boosted by the fact that other cars were found to have suffered cuts on their tyres during the red flag period triggered by Verstappen’s incident.

    In a bid to get to the bottom of what happened, Pirelli flew the tyres back to its Milan headquarters for a detailed analysis in its laboratories.

    On Tuesday, the Italian tyre company issued a release making it clear that the failures were not caused by a production fault, wear nor delamination.

    It went on reveal that the blow outs were instead caused by a circumferential break on the inner sidewall of the tyres, rather than being the result of a cut from debris.

    The statement suggested that the breaks in the sidewall were likely caused by the ‘running condition of the tyre’ – which is probably related to either tyre pressures or the temperatures they were run at.

    “This analysis also took in the tyres used by other cars in the race, which had the same or a higher number of laps on them compared to the ones that were damaged,” it said.

    “The process established that there was no production or quality defect on any of the tyres; nor was there any sign of fatigue or delamination.

    "The causes of the two left-rear tyre failures on the Aston Martin and Red Bull cars have been clearly identified.

    "In each case, this was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed.”

    F1 teams are currently only required to run tyres at a minimum tyre pressure when they are first fitted to the cars, as there is no requirement for them to maintain pressures once a car is out on track.

    This means that the door is open for teams to find ways to lower the pressure once checks have taken place, but such a reduction in pressure means the tyre is put under more stress.

    Pirelli revealed that new pressure and tyre blanket protocols were to be put in place to ensure there could be no repeat of the Baku problem, with teams having already been informed by the FIA of what new processes must be followed.

    The statement added: “As a result of this analysis, Pirelli have submitted their report to the FIA and the Teams. The FIA and Pirelli have agreed a new set of the protocols, including an upgraded technical directive already distributed, for monitoring operating conditions during a race weekend and they will consider any other appropriate actions.”

    Red Bull has since responded to the findings and insists it ran its tyres within Pirelli's parameters.

    "We have worked closely with Pirelli and the FIA during their investigation into Max’s tyre failure on lap 47 of the Azerbaijan Grand Prix and can confirm that no car fault was found," the Red Bull statement read.

    "We adhered to Pirelli’s tyre parameters at all times and will continue to follow their guidance.

    "We are grateful that following the weekend’s high speed impacts no drivers were injured."

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirelli-concludes-investigation-into-baku-f1-tyre-failures/6572228/
     
  15. 635CSI

    635CSI F1 Rookie

    Jun 26, 2013
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    Graham
    Imagine the prestige a Far Eastern supplier would get by beating the Western manufacturers.
    Bring it on !
    Oh sorry, that would be a bit competitive.
     
  16. Sean O'Neill

    Sean O'Neill Karting

    Apr 4, 2020
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    So, despite the teams following proper procedures, the tires failes twice...um thats called a defect.
     
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  17. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    It would seem that way BUT Pirelli is placing the blame on tire pressures(minimum or maximum) buy both RedBull and Aston.
     
  18. sp1der

    sp1der F1 Rookie

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    Usual response when have Pirelli actually owned up to any problems during there tenure? Whilst they FIA may set criteria for the tyres to meet the end product has at least one set of major failures every season that is the normal, debris, too much load, wrong pressures etc etc. It is clear there modelling of the tyres and the recommendations for usage are the problems.
     
  19. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    Put Pirelli sets the minimum tyre pressure (which then gets mandated and controlled by FIA)...

    So RBR/AM follow the procedure, 2 tyres fail well short of their maximum distance (recommended by Pirelli), at least 1 tyre (Mercedes) was about to fail on top of that...

    It's a Pirelli fault, but they don't actually want to admit it.
     
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  20. Nembo1777

    Nembo1777 F1 World Champ
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    Pirelli's incompetence is a total joke, I just hope no driver gets injured.

    Michelin with their endurance racing expertise would absolutely crush them in a tire war, eat them for breakfast. We would have tires that drivers can push on flat out for their lifespan duration.
     
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  21. Patrick Dixon

    Patrick Dixon Formula 3

    Mar 27, 2012
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    Apparently no one is policing the tyre pressures so it's not really clear whether all of the teams are complying. You would like to think so, but this is F1.
     
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  22. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    Anyone believing FIA doesn't check tyre pressures hasn't a clue about F1. An enormous amount of time can be won running alternate pressure (lower than recommended typically). It's one of the easiest things to check.
     
  23. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Teams never 'push' the limits lol. Ever lol :)
     

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