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Paris 2016 Auctions

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Struppi, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. John B

    John B Formula 3
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    May 27, 2003
    1,547
    NJ
    EUR 30.08 mm, or USD $33.5mm for the 335 S still sounds like a lot of money to me. Granted, it's an absolutely stunning and significant automobile, but the pre-auction estimate was USD $30 - $34 no? What is the basis for all the disappointment in the sales price of this car?
     
  2. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 17, 2001
    27,697
    Paris / Chicago
    Full Name:
    Andrew Menasce
    It sold for the estimate yes but it was the way the sale took place. Not sure if you watched it but it seemed that only 2 bidders were interested in the car. It went from 20m to 25m quickly then really slowly to 28m (hammer price). They were taking 50k euro increments which was crazy to see. Granted i have no idea what goes in the head of these people, but if i was there bidding for a 25m car, there is no way i would let it go for an extra 50k or even 500k.

    But maybe as it was said here, people only want to pay 30m+ for the GTO/250 TR/P4...

    In any case, i hope this car shows up at a few US events!
     
  3. Mckinney

    Mckinney Karting

    Mar 29, 2013
    198
    Sometimes it's hard to read any rhyme or reason into auction prices for very high end items. I remember the Eileen Gray 'dragon chair' which went for USD 28 mm (EUR 21 mm at the time) against an estimate of EUR 2-3 mm at the Yves St Laurent estate sale (Christies) in February 2009. This was the gloomiest and scariest economic time in memory, and yet the sale fetched nearly EUR 400 mm, largely from the contents of Mr. St Laurent's Paris apartment.
     
  4. NCB

    NCB Rookie

    Mar 21, 2011
    6
    I read the comments about Artcurial. Please don't forget that Mr Poulain sold classic cars since more than 35 years. So he is not a beginner...
     
  5. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    14,418
    I personally attended the auction and stood approx 3 inches next to the winning bidder's son.
    Max Girardo of RM only did the bidding on behalf of that man (who was on the telephone). An American. NOT Mr Wexner.
    The new owner of 0674, who is personally known to me since many years, is a major collector with excellent taste. All in for that car is US$ 35.9 M.
    The auction as such was very chaotic, to say the least.
    I found it surprising/alarming to see that three of the major candidates/potential bidders for 0674 did not even bid at all. Two were quickly wiped out once the 25 M $ mark had been reached. And the third had a problem with his ego.

    Marcel Massini
     
  6. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    14,418
    Yes, it will.

    Marcel Massini
     
  7. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    14,418
    Car was sold by court order to raise cash for inheritance tax due.
    This was decided about 8 months ago. And it had to be in France and by a French auction house only.

    Marcel Massini
     
  8. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    14,418
    Total price all in is US$ 35.9 M.

    Marcel Massini
     
  9. 300GW/RO

    300GW/RO Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2010
    917
    east end LI
    Full Name:
    Jack

    Thank you MM...always best to get thoughts/info form those in attendance & who understand the subject matter.

    Jack
     
  10. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2013
    397
    NYC/CT
    Classic Driver has good summaries of the RM and Bonhams auctions (the full analysis of Artcurial on Monday): https://www.classicdriver.com/en/article/cars/bonhams-kicks-its-european-season-quintessential-french-style , https://www.classicdriver.com/en/article/cars/market-speaks-2016-rm-sothebys-sale-paris?language=en-US .

    They seem to reach similar conclusions. There is absolutely nothing wrong with corrections, they happen all the time in the stock market and we haven't given up on it yet! The question is if it changes the psychology of the market. To the extent that the run up in prices over the last 3-4 yrs might have been partly the result of a wide spread assumption that car prices are a one way street, a correction could change the dynamic of the market. Hobbies are supposed to cost money. We (and more ominously our spouses) are getting a reminder that this may apply to cars as well...
     
  11. energy88

    energy88 F1 World Champ
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    Jan 21, 2012
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    John
    On the webcast, there appeared to be a problem with the car just after the 335S (a white '87 GTS). It seemed to me that after the hammer fell and when the 3 attendants started to push the car off the block, they stopped, abruptly left the stage, and an argument broke out (in French) between the auctioneer and someone in the audience. About 2 minutes later the attendants returned and finished pushing the car off the block. Do you know what happened? Just curious.
     
  12. msn

    msn Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2011
    250
    Marcel, as a collector myself it saddens me to read articles like this, how can a families passion for collecting ferraris cars for a generation end like this..
     
  13. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    14,418
    Have you made your last will? All notarized etc? All bullet proof?
    Pierre Bardinon, before he died, tried to arrange his last will but the 3 kids apparently could not come to an agreement (who gets what, the collection, the castle, track, companies, other wealth like their massive Paris real estate, etc.). Pierre B gave up and said, once I am gone it will be your problem. Just about 1 year later his widow also passed away, still there was no will. Shortly thereafter the "war" broke out between the three kids. And the French government came and wanted the inheritance taxes.
    This is why the 335 S had to be sold. I understand the taxes due are approx 33 M Euros. The car last night brought 28 M Euros. This means 5 M Euros (at least) are missing, to pay all the taxes (and interests???). Could this mean that more Ferraris have to be sold out of the remaining collection?
    And all this because no last will was set up before the owner passed away?

    Marcel Massini
     
  14. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 17, 2001
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    Andrew Menasce

    And greed of the government..Why should there be a tax on what was amassed from what is left after all the taxes paid by the Bardinons throughout their lives.

    But this is another subject..

    It is strange they publicly auctioned it if they were trying to "minimize" their tax exposure.

    Are the kids interested in the Ferraris at all? I think you said yes. Hopefully they can keep the other cars.
     
  15. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
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    Jimmie
    That's interesting as I got the sense watching the feed there were four bidders (Max plus someone else on his side of the room plus one on the other side and then a phone bidder on the dais) - having said that as already noted it was quite difficult to follow
     
  16. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    3,606
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    Mario
    They hammered down before bidding was through. Same happened during the sale of a DB4, though during the DB4 sale they continued bidding. Not so with the 308 (which was Red, as I remember)...
     
  17. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    889
    They are not trying to minimize their tax exposure, the amount of tax due and late interest is known. They are just raising the money by selling one asset to pay the tax!
    And unlike MM, France being what it is, a will or no will has no incidence on the amount of inheritance tax due. And no structure would have solved that unless either they had found a way to cheat on tax, or they would have left France long time ago. They decided not to do that ( either of the 2) and pay their taxes, and I don't think there is anything to be ashamed of. From time to time, to keep some assets, you have to sell some...
     
  18. Terra

    Terra Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,033
    With perhaps better/more astute estate planning during their lifetimes, could Pierre and his wife Yanne have simply moved ownership of the collection to, say, an instrument such as a Swiss Trust, with the three children designated as the sole trustees?
     
  19. P.Singhof

    P.Singhof F1 Rookie

    Apr 19, 2006
    4,703
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Full Name:
    Peter Singhof
    You can see it different...Although 50K seems to be a ridiculous amount of money in this price region maybe it was exactly what drove the price to 28 at the end...It was the same with the GTO at Bonhams back then, they did the same...
    I was not in the room at Artcurial but looking at the live stream it looked that the majority of potential buyers have reached their personal limit near 27 Mio € as bidding got very slow then...By making small increments of 100k or even 50k the auctioneer might have convinced them to do another bid BECAUSE it is just a small amount and one should not loose the car because of only 50k...until the last bidder got quiet at 27.95 Mio although he might have thought of a limit of 27 or 27.5 in advance so with these small increments the auctioneer actually raised the price to a few 100k he would not got with increments of 250k or even 500k at this level. So his tactics might have looked strange to watch but actually worked.
    I would think that every regular to auctions comes with a clear vision of how much he is willing to pay and sometimes it is the job of the auctioneer to get him a little bit further. And if the vibe in the room does not encourage to do so maybe small increments will do...
     
  20. richardson michael

    Aug 17, 2013
    239
    brittany. france
    Full Name:
    michael richardson
    The french will system is a dogs dinner. Forgeting the super-rich,who could leave the country to protect their wealth,the ordinary families,with siblings,all end up in an argument of how,and when to divide up the estate. As this is usually a house previously occupied by their parents,by the time they have made any decision,the house has fallen into disrepair,and is then worthless. The siblings end up with their share of nothing !!
     
  21. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    889
    I am afraid, as a trained lawyer, that this does not work in France. So long you are a French resident, you have to register your assets abroad and pay in France, subject to double tax treaties, both income, capital gains and inheritance tax, so long you are Fench resident. French IRS collected 7b euros last year from French residents having assets abroad...
     
  22. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    Mar 2, 2005
    14,418
    Including many French residing now in Gstaad or the Valais, Switzerland, French Government just "forgetting" about the double tax agreement that exists between France and Switzerland.......... No wonder all the really wealthy French have exiled and given up their French residency.

    Marcel Massini
     
  23. richardson michael

    Aug 17, 2013
    239
    brittany. france
    Full Name:
    michael richardson
    Yes BIRA,but we are saying that if you give up French residency/citizenship,and declare that you are now domiciled in another place( as did actor Gerard Depardieu,to Russia),then you can protect your assets from the clutches of the french system. If you agree with me,with your legal expertise,which I have not got,then the Bardion family should have been advised before Dad,and Mum passed away. That advice was obviously not forthcoming,and the French 'Tresor Public' have become the major benificiary of the estate. Nasty business for sure.
     
  24. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    14,418
    Remember the Schlumpf case? Which turned into a French National Treasury? Just another French disaster.

    Marcel Massini
     

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