Opinion of Chris Bangle's design direction with BMW...........

No bangle butts or flame surfaces here :
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Incidentally any Z8 owners here ? any experiences to share ?

 

Good point about Jaguar, although the 'breakout' S-Type is struggling and the X-Type has been greeted with antipathy from the start. Corporate platform engineering (a Lincoln and Mondeo, I think) has led to a marque slipping into irrelevance.

Jag had the spectacular F-Type started and then Ford pulled the plug on what would have been the sexiest, coolest must-have car in its segment. A real image leader. Beancounters shot Jaguar in the paw, IMO.

The Z8 is stunning, inside and out, and rare to boot.

 

Yes, I think it is rather sad/poor effort too. (I do not like the new S class with its ford focus fenders)

Sorry, I am not a fan of either the E65/66 or the W221.

 

But he was responsible for this car as well

 

BMW, Porsche, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, ect. are all moving downmarket from where they used to be. Plus, the aggressive financing and leasing deals (how many TV commericals for these companies/dealers do you see now in comparsion to 10 or so years ago/.). Also, the biggest population sector are making prime incomes to splash out. The 3-series is the most repossessed car in the country.

 

I would half agree - he did not design the car but had to approve it as design director -

See this article by Bangle himself on his work at BMW - it describes what his responsibilities and who actually designs the cars -

Included are the sketches of the cars (including the Z8) signed off by the actual designers -

its an interesting read and well worth looking at, even by Bangle detractors.


http://darmano.typepad.com/for_blog/BMW_case_study.pdf

 

Dear Maranello Guy,

Kizdan may be right - going by date, it may seem that E36 was designed under Bangle - However, as Bangle himself wrote in his article, the E36 was already at final stages before he arrived. The E36 was therefore not a Bangle car.


http://darmano.typepad.com/for_blog/BMW_case_study.pdf

 

Dear Westworld,

Your equating smaller with downmarket which may not be quite correct.

BMW etc sell smaller cars but these cars cost much much more than similar models - check price of 3 series vs Ford Mondeo.

Selling smaller cars is also not an act of desperation - BMW profits are the highest for the 3 series, their most important car.

I am also not sure if the 3-series is the most repossessed car in the country but let's say it is, what's your point ? I can't see any connection except that it shows that BMW sell many cars.

Are you familiar with BMW history ? - are you aware that BMW once sold an car even smaller than the 1 series called the isettas ?
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Which mercedes did you buy (in preference to the E 65/66) ? what are the other cars you own ?

 

Down market-moving down the price range and putting yourself at risk for diluting the brand.

 

You're right , but if you're chief designer and you are approving some project it automatically becomes "your car" !

The similar situation was back in the '50 when GM's chief designer was Harley J Earl . He was responsible for such a cars like Buick Y Job or first Corvette from 1953 ! They were his cars , however he never draw them ! He approved that design and made them "his cars" !

I know what you mean saying that when Bangle arrived the car was almost finished and wasn't much to do then . However he was the person who could actually change it and make it different !

Few years ago there was a good article about it in Auto & Design magazine . Fulvio CInti ( main editor) was explaining difference about great designers and great chief designers !

Anyway , thanks for a great article !

Tad

 

Not sure if you know about car making or business - you can't change a model when its so advanced - Bangle could not do anything about E36. Its not true that he could make it different. So even if you go by your rationalisation that a car design belongs to the chief designer (which I do not agree with), it would still not be Bangle's car.

 

Thank you for your reply but moving down the price range does not mean down market. The 2 are completely different matters.

Moving down the price range does not mean brand equity will be affected.

Thirdly, has BMW actually moved down the price range ? They haven't. The 3, 5 and 7 series all remain at the same price range. They are also more expensive than other cars of the same class like VW, Ford and certain Japanese / Korean Cars.

You have made a general statement that these car makers are moving down market without providing any proof.

 

Here is the meaning of down market:

down market

–adjective 1. appealing or catering to lower-income consumers; widely affordable or accessible.
–adverb 2. in a down-market way.

Now, I am talking about the US market. I think we are on two different concepts.

 

I dislike it, but at the same time there are a few ok looking cars. Saw a new M5 today in black and it is pretty good looking. The new Z4M coupe is not bad either. But over all I dont like it.

 

Sorry but how does saying "the US market" provide any basis for your wide sweeping statement that BMW and others are going "down market" with their new cars?

Please provide an answer with examples, eg which cars are you referring to ?
the new M5 ? the new 6 series ? the planned top of the range Z9 ?

why do you say these new and forthcoming BMW cars show that BMW are "...appealing or catering to lower-income consumers and are widely affordable or accessible .. " ?

As far as I can see these cars are very far from "...appealing or catering to lower-income consumers and are widely affordable or accessible .. ".

 

Obviously the 6 series is expensive, but every twentysomething here in San Diego seems to have a 3 series. I think that's what Westworld was saying. It's hard to stop at a traffic light without having a BMW more than one car-length away. Many SUVs cost more.

Do you work for BMW?

70% of the people on this site seem to hate BMW's design direction. The 7 series gets tweaked every year or two to rectify its cosmetics. We can say that those 70% are all wrong and don't have a grasp of their own opinions, and that BMW's image is safe, or dig into why there's this lopsided result.

My beef with BMW isn't that it's highest performance cars are too cheap - it's that they're unattractive and obsese (The 6 series weighs double what a Lotus Elise weighs. This thing is a whale.)

 

I do not work for BMW but know that what Westworld is trying to say is that BMW has gone down market with the 3 series. He said:

However, he is wrong because the 3 series is not a new car. Its not BMW moving downmarket from where it used to be because it has been manufactured by BMW since May 1975 and is also BMW's best selling automobile, accounting for nearly 40% of all automobiles sold by the company in 2005.

Its also not downmarket by any means as it sells for more than many cars of the same class, a point that you do not disagree with.

So to say that the 3 series is a sign of BMW going downmarket and doing so recently is wrong on several levels.

I try to be fair with my comments. I pointed out to Maranello Guy that E36 was not a Bangle design although many Bangle supporters like to claim credit for him for that car.

Now when you say 70% of the people on this thread (not the site by the way) that does not translate to 70% of all car buyers. Btw its only 56% of those polled.

I don't think the alleged 70% (or 56%) are wrong in that they are expressing their views but views must be you supported by correct facts otherwise its just taking easy pot shots at something from the comfort of anonymity. In this case, it is a verifiable fact that BMW sales have increased with the new designs. In the face of this, can you honestly say that the 70% / 56% here reflect the views of the majority ?

Is the 7 series tweaked every year or two to rectify its cosmetics ? or is that your assumption ?

BMW highest performance cars are too cheap ? That's the first time I have heard of such a comment.

Although the 6 series may weigh more than an Elise, to call it a whale is clearly an overstatement of the highest order. Wouldn't you say ?

Btw,I see you have a 328 GTS. Nice car.

 

True enough, the 3 has been around for decades, and BMW killed the 318ti and four-cylinder variants. The vinyl-upholstered 328 sedan is attainable for most, but not cheap.

I would say the views on FChat reflect the views of hardcore car enthusiasts who are unusually familiar with performance-oriented cars on the market and don't pull punches when it comes to discussing even new Ferrari designs. Increased BMW sales do not, as has been said here, indicate widespread admiration of their sheet metal: the BMW brand is one of the world's most valuable, and the driving dynamics of its cars have improved. They are a fashion accessory among the affluent. Just as Kate Spade handbags don't carry more stuff, or do it any better than brand X handbags, they command a premium among the brand conscious.

Also, there are more people (population growth in the U.S. having brought us to the 300m mark), and more of them are buying cars.

I believe the current generation of designs has taken its licks in the mainstream press. FChat is not the mainstream, but it is a good sample of those who are obsessed with cars. You'll note the Aston-Martins have gotten raves here, while the Ferrari 599GTB oftentimes has not. Tough crowd. In marketing, though, a 56% 'hate' rating is nothing to shrug off.

The cosmetics part is my assumption. The tweaks are noticeable, especially around the front and tail, and in comparison with the original. I wouldn't expect BMW to issue a statement to the effect that "We inadventently made the 7 series very ugly; it will take some time for a redesign, but in the meantime, in order to save face, we will alter some of the design elements that have received the most ridicule." I would guess "airflow management" and "enhanced nighttime illumination" would be the reasons given.

You misread. I think they're expensive, and appropriately so for their engineering.

No. I'm appalled by how stupidly heavy and complicated these cars have become. Time and again, the most memorable sporting cars made have been lightweight. Porsche Speedster and the staggeringly costly RS Models, Lotus Elise, Ferrari Challenge Stradale... those are real driving machines. Athletic, exciting, visceral. Less is more. For BMW, the original 2002 model commands loyalty for being the archetype of the sporting coupe - fun to drive, tossable and practical. I wonder what one of those weighs.

If I want a heavy luxury vehicle, there's a Land Rover dealer near enough, happy to sell me a pavement-crushing LR3.

Thank you. Not the fastest car on the road, but an absolute joy to look at and drive.

 

Who said about changing a whole model . . . . . . Remember that trim , colours etc. are also part of design !

 

MG,

You mean Bangle "designed" the E36 just by ordering some new colours and trim ?

I like the new designs like you but you have got to give E36 to the pre- banglelites...the colours and trim are not why the E36 is beloved by them ... I think its good the e36 was not a Bangle car - its so squarish and boring anyway .. I think Bangle is happy to point out its not his actually

 

Part of the problem is the aggressive push of leasing, easy-to-access credit, as well as an increase in the earning power of the baby boomers. Has BMW raised the prices to reflect inflation? I'm not saying the 3-series or the Z4 models are cheap. It's not, but it's currently a lot easier to get yourself into one. The price difference for someone who is looking at a pricy economy model to a 3-series, Z4, or any other luxury low-end lines is not that far apart. The 3-series and Z4s are becoming almost common as economy nameplates.

 

I didn't mean that pal !

 

No ? but I am afraid that's what you said.