Oil in coolant | FerrariChat

Oil in coolant

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by wrxmike, Jul 25, 2012.

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  1. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    #1 wrxmike, Jul 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Several weeks ago, while checking the coolant level I noticed a buildup of brown sludge under the radiator cap on my 412 - not good. I removed the sludge and went for an extended ( 1 hr ) drive.
    Next morning I checked under the radiator cap again and found more brown sludge :(. My initial reaction was - oh crap, a blown head gasket.
    Checking the oil revealed none of the milky residue normally found when coolant gets in to the oil, nore where there any signs that the cooling system was being pressurised by combustion gases. So the oil had to be getting in to the coolant from somewhere else.

    The water pump was my next suspect, except that there is no pressurised oil behind the water pump seal, if the water pump leaks, it's always water in to the oil, not the other way around.

    A search on Ferrarichat found this thread http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320692&highlight=oil+water and Friz Ficke's post on a potential source of the leak.

    So I ordered the O rings & gasket and pulled it all apart yesterday - see pics below.
    1st picture is the engine with the oil filters removed
    2nd picture is after the oil catch can has been removed
    3rd picture is after the oil filter mount has been removed and gasket cleaned up and shows the tops of the tubes that sit flush with the block - these need to be pulled out to chnage the o rings.


    The most important thing to remember is to drain all the coolant from the engine first, otherwise you are going to have coolant in you oil when you remove the short tubes that the o rings are fitted to.

    M
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  2. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    #2 wrxmike, Jul 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The next photo shows the tube removed from the block, notice that it's got some oil buildup on the outside of the tube, a shure sign that oil has been leaking past the O rings and in to the coolant/

    The 2nd photo shows the tube cleaned up with new O rings fitted. The old O rings had gone hard, in fact the lower o rings was so brittle it broke when I tried to remove it fromt he pipe.

    The third photo shows how I removed the tubes - i simply used a bolt to hook under the lower edge of the tube and used a lever on the nut to pull it up carefully out of the block.

    Last picture is evertything back together again.

    This was a simple and cheap fix, and I suspect that all 365/400/412 engines are going to need it at some point as over time the O rings wil all eventually go hard and leak oil.

    M
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  3. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Great information and thanks for posting it!
     
  4. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    I for one really appreciate when you guys take the time to do these writeups with the pictures. Thanks!
     
  5. aidanparte

    aidanparte Formula 3

    Jul 18, 2004
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    Thanks for documenting this fix. What a relief that it wasn't the head gasket!

    Aidan
     
  6. simon klein

    simon klein Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanx,Mike...I'm VERY glad for you that it was'nt you're first thought!!!
     
  7. alastairhouston

    alastairhouston Formula Junior

    Apr 19, 2009
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    Excellent knowledge
    spotless looking engine too. well done that man.
     
  8. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2012
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    Thanks for the how-to. That is an ingenious extraction tool. I am in awe.

    I notice a cross-over line between your WURs. Is that original equipment? My '83 does not have this, but the great Larry Fletcher mailed to me all the fittings and lines to install such a cross-over on my car. Your little brackets, to hold the plastic tubing, make it look like a factory installation. Is it?
     
  9. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    #9 wrxmike, Jul 25, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
    Hi Bill

    The cross over tube between the WUR's and the brackets are all factory standard for the 412, and looking at the parts diagrams on the Eurospares website it should be on the 400 as well.
    (The cross over pipe is #113925 and it fits both cars.) The purpose of the pipe is to equalise pressures across both WUR''s so that both banks of the engine can be balanced.

    Thanks for the comments on the extraction "tool", sometimes you need to be creative to fix these cars :)

    BTW, I sent one of my WUR's to Larry Fletcher ( via a roundabout route ) for a rebuild in late March this year, turn around was about 3 weeks back to Australia. The WUR is perfect, his workmanship is excellent. He is definately "the man" when it comes to K Jetronic rebuilds.


    M
     
  10. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    Absolutely, because the RHS head only went back on the car in February, and I don't think I could manage the excitement and anticpation of another head job this year :)

    M
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 Steve Magnusson, Jul 25, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
    See Fig 45 on page 68 of your 250/82 OM -- the photos in post #9 of this thread:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362670

    shows it on Greg's 400i.

    My guess would be that yours got removed when modified for the US and then not reinstalled when the US modifications were removed -- it connects to the same place that a FV would be connected to add quasi-Lambda control. It should connect the ports on the WURs that are connected to the center plunger port positions on the FDs.
     
  12. 180 Out

    180 Out Formula 3

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    #12 180 Out, Jul 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    It makes perfect sense to have the cross-over. There's no reason to have a different control pressure on each cylinder bank. I wonder what was the reason to remove it when federalizing this car.

    Here's a photo of the bag of stuff that Larry Fletcher gave me so I could add a cross-over to my car. And I do mean *gave*. He pulled this stuff together and sent it for free. He even ate the shipping. Anyone in need of Jetronic help, please send your business to Larry at CIS Flowtech: http://cisflowtech.ity.co.uk/m/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 . Besides being a good guy, I think Larry has a soft spot for these old Bosch injected cars and it's his mission in life to get all of them to be running great.
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  13. Fritz Ficke

    Fritz Ficke Formula 3
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    Good fix.
    I used a slid hammer pilot bearing remover borrowed from a friend.
    Great community here.
     
  14. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Would you kindly post the part numbers for the gasket and o-rings used?

    Thanks!
     
  15. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    O Ring #101033 x 2
    O Ring #101034 x 2
    Gasket #147640 x 1


    M
     
  16. pbat

    pbat Karting

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    It is amazing you found this as the problem and not pull the whole engine apart to find out later. This will save a lot of money and time for people in the future. I am impressed.

    Peter
     
  17. Tassie

    Tassie Formula Junior

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    Thanks for the write up Mike - I have just sent you a PM
     
  18. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    Doing this repair shortly on a 400i...with a history of oil in the coolant.
     
  19. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    #19 wrxmike, Aug 9, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  20. Ashman

    Ashman Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Looks slightly medieval! What size bolt and nut do you use? Is there a better tool to extract those tubes and how much force is needed to get them out and then reinsert them?

    Thanks, this is all going into the file for "things that I am eventually going to need"!
     
  21. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    Yep, fairly primitive but it worked. It was an 8mm diameter bolt & nut, something I had in lying around in the workshop.

    I think one could probably fabricate a better puller quite easily, or perhaps use a spigot bearing slide hammer type puller.

    M
     
  22. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    #22 fastradio, Aug 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    And a set of long, thin arms on my slide hammer pilot bearing extract tool...the passage ways were removed. There's clear evident of oil and anti-freeze mixing.
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  23. SouthJersey400i

    SouthJersey400i Formula 3

    Mar 14, 2007
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    Well it was my turn to do this job. I drained oil and coolant from the radiator. I reread this post before attempting to pull out the sleeves. The front sleeve pulled out with the bolt "tool" and a small paint can opener for the first give and then all it took was a plastic interior panel tool to get it the rest of the way out.

    OOPS! I look in the hole and coolant was slowing rising in the bottom of the galley way. I pushed sleeve back in and checked the radiator was empty and got a small amount more out. I pulled the sleeve and level was still rising. It looks like it was coming from bottom up but it must be draining from the side opening which is normally between the two o-rings. The coolant just sits there and does not drain into the motor (oil side). I have the oil 'pan' drain open and no water has arrived.

    A couple of questions:
    1. Has anyone else had this happen doing this job?
    2. Which way does the front galley go? Is it from the oil pump or to the motor?
    3. Is there a water drain somewhere on the block? If so, did others drain the coolant from that point before doing this job?
    4. I think there is only a small amount of water in this galley. But it was still rising when I put the sleeve back in the second time. Any ideas how to get the coolant out?
    5. Should I pull the rear sleeve out? Maybe this way the remaining coolant will drain to the sump and out the bottom.

    HELP please.

    Ken
     
  24. GT Jones

    GT Jones Formula Junior

    Oct 15, 2011
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    I'm in the middle of this job and the o-rings appear to be nearly identical. Is this correct or was I shipped the wrong parts?
     
  25. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    They are similar but not interchangeable. #101033 is the top one, #101034 is the bottom one
    M
     

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