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Discussion in 'Recreations & Non-Period Rebodies' started by ferrariguy, Aug 30, 2004.
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very wonderful pictures; you can see the hand-built essence of it at this level of resolution.
I don't think that car will ever sell for $5M. Wow, I was just thiniking all the Ferrari's I could buy for $5M.
IMO the orginal GTO is on some level awkward, yet the most bueatiful thing ever produced.
Most of the repos filter out that little bit of awkwardness (an inch here, a slight roll there, a minor degree here etc). Yet those litttle, almost imperceptible difference make them completly off.
I've only seen 3-5 actuall GTO's and probably 2 fiarly good fakes. Yet even as a layman GTO follower, but as a very visual person I can see the differences.
Although not side by side and not eaxctly the same angle, comparing the 2 silver cars, the repo f'd up on the side vents the head lights. Similarly, the window rake on the repo is sexier, but the "increased" rake on the OEM GTO is part of the awkwardness/bueaty mix I spoke of before.
The repo does not have the defined rear 1/4 panel to rear deck line/rake/seam that the OEM does....etc.
Every once in a while a couple of guys with hammers and skills churn out a timeless design that even given today's technology can't totally be reproduced. Cars are one of those areas. GTO's, GT-40's, 917's, 67 vettes, Cobra's, XJ-13...the list goes on. No matter how hard they try, they can not repo the OEM car.
And FWIW, even if I had the $ I would persoanlly be ashamed to either drive and/or own a fake like this let alone show up in one. IMO you should either buy a real one or sit on the sidleines and appreciate.
Fakes and repos simply diminish the value of the real deal. And if a person really appreciates/loves the real deal they would honor that by not buying fake.
Actually this car would be one of the most desirable GTOs in the market today. As I said before non-restored originals GTOs are the ones that command a premium. One of those recently sold for $28M or so recently...
Of course with the state of the economy, prices of GTOs will drop like the rest of the Ferraris...
I've been looking more at the comparisons. The rear fender guards on the repro differ from the original. The factory original has a slight lip/flare around the rear guards; the repro doesn't, is flat.
The factory original's tail/spoiler area that frames the rear valence/number plate area is shallower than the deeper one of the repro. The differences are not so big but they are there of course. Regardless, I like the reproduction as an homage to the great GTO. I'd drive it.
I can see why it takes your breath away - it's absolutely stunning!
That body style just stands out.
Check the pages of this thread..it appears that 250 GTO's came all configurations of flared lips and 2 or 3 vent outlets..
The one we're talking about here isn't a GTO. It's a replica. At best it's worth 200K. As I said it's been for sale for years. The only thing to be ashamed of is not fully disclosing exactly what this car is and or implying that it's some how more than exactly what it is which is a replica car period. As for being "indistinguishable" from a real one that is a joke.
and the car is still driven hard
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Hi Jim. Of course I was talking about 3647GT (which in my eyes is almost priceless)... not the silver replica.
A replica is a replica. period. Trying to pass it as the real deal would be, of course, fraud.
Just wanted to clarify. I realized you were but the 5 million asking price of the replica may have confused some.
Patina nice way of saying needs work and paint, Ferraris have patina but a 73 Gremlin is just a rust bucket beater. that replica is stunning for 200k a nice car, amazing how exotic the GTO looks 45 years later imagine the reactions then when everything had fins and rocket gimmick space ship type tail lights Autorama style, too bad the past 2 supercars are soo ugly in comparison, they may be shocking aka Enzo but surely dont compare in design to the GTO
ok cool. I was aware of the varied vent configurations, but not of the lip around the wheel wells. GTOs really are unique in each example made; wow.
the closeup pics in this thread of the real GTO depict exactly the hand-made, one-off-like, quality of the hand-tooling. Never have I been made so aware of the cottage-industry nature of Ferrari's business model. The cars are actually rough and highly imperfect, yet they are among the most stunningly beautiful cars ever created!
and couldn't have said it better
I love Ferrari but some of the terms used to excuse obvious flaws can be amusing.
thank you, Jim, for beating me to it. The proliferation of replicas built on the guts of real vintage Ferraris is disturbing to me. A "250 GTO" showed up at a recent FCA event - a quick s/n check revealed that it was built on the remains of a 250 PF Coupe - but, sure enough, the write-up in the next Prancing Horse said that a "250 GTO" appeared at the event. I don't specifically fault the writer or the owner - I wasn't there so I don't know what representations he did or did not make; I understand that he is a good guy and not a sheister - but now this incorrect factoid is forever in print (to confound future historians). And lord knows how many of the onlookers thought they were seeing the real deal.
A well-known Ferrari historian opined about ten years ago that there were 3 times as many fake GTOs running around than real ones - I can only imagine what the number is now. I wish replica owners would put a sign on the dash stating "This is a replica built on 250 GTE/PF Coupe/330 2+2, s/n xxxx and is not one of the 39 original GTOs."
There was or is a company in Italy called Allegreti that copies these cars for a lot less than 5 million and they are as close to the real deal as the real deal.
Personaly if 250 GTO is a 250 GTO the only difference being when it was made, then that difference reflects in value due to historical refernce, tyhe FIA seems to agree to. Owners of older ones hate repros because they feel the repro harms the value of their car. But if you actualy like driving and want to experience the thing as opposed to being a value snob a repro is great. And realisticaly the ferrari clasiche program is close to a repro manufacturer.
A real old ford GT40 is near unobtanium and to run one hard on the track means it is mostly rebuilt(rebuilt tub, new fiberglass), but for 100k you can get a superformance one which is close enough to real orginal that the differences are moot, and you can thrash it as shelby intended because it aint no historical artifact. I know there are some real real ones left, but most are not.
It all gets a bit stcky when we have replicas, which are cars that look very close to the original but are built completly differently, and that is a different subject.
Many so called original Buggatis are made from new and old bits and are technicaly repros, but Bug owners are not snobs about this. Wooden boats particularily the sailing ones might have only a few "original' piecs left but are still revered because of their design and function.
Car people are on a serious high horse, mostly driven by those who seek to attach ridiculous value to so called orginals. Seriously look at hemi cudas, cloned for 75k but an original left the factory that way so its worth 500k more. Everyone is free to spend money on whatever they want. But do not let people dictate values acceptability or class for that matter because something original was made 50 years ago. These are cars, built in series, like lithographs, not one off pieces of art, and even if they are one off, they are engineered products therefore copyable to great detail.
What is classy is perople enjoying the essence of the thing, not the value. The reason there are so few unrestored cars is because the same nitiwit mentality that now says repros are crap thought every car had to be an overretored chromed out monstrosity that drove like crap because it was not actualy used.
I have total respect for people who use and enjoy the thing whenever it was built.
I will finish though by saying if you pretend your repro was built 50 years ago or whatever then you are a nitwit who owns it only for the status and the status is FAKE.
These days we think unrestored cars are great, in Europe they always thgought that way and cried when a car got sold to the USA and was permenantly ruined, so now in the USA we supposedly have a little more taste. Well in Europe the FIA sees no proplem with quality repros, no one objected either when 30 years later aston knoked off a few more DB4 Zagotos of the remains of some old DB4's. Dont let speculators and so called collectors dictate class and value, have your own.
Lastly I would much rather see some real repros racing properly than the ***gy track display tour that seems to pass for historic racing by poseurs with enough money to pretend to be historic racers.
Give me a break, just go out and drive. Matbe if we banned concors, people would gop back to just driving and all the showers would find something new like collecting galss sculpture.
Yeah....and they even managed to get his name wrong.
I bet you have never been to goodwood and see those precious cars driven all out... And you should check the facts about the GTO's. They were not ordinary Ferraris, but purpose hand built racers with the objective to obliterate the competition (and indeed for a few years they did). Their value today represent what they are: extremely beautiful and rare machines that are the essence of a Ferrari...
The problem anyway with repros, is not because they are repros but some of their owners try to pass them for the real deal. Repros never had any incidence on the value of a real GTO! If you are in the market of shelling a few million bucks, you want to do your homework first, and unless you are stupid you will never buy a reproduction thinking it's a genuine car...
Why should repros not be allowed to race with the real things? It's simple: because they are NOT REAL period cars... You can have a period car the same age of the GTO and race in the same vintage races without paying for the price of a GTO, so why try to race a repro with the real deal, that misses the point of vintage racing...
don't get me wrong, I have no problem enjoying repros. I really like the silver GTO repro , but they should be enjoyed for what they are, nothing less, but nothing more...
I think in essence we agree. I also have a problem with pretending the repro is "geuine" even though it may be authentic. But yes they should run on the track with the old ones. The old ones are mostly not original anyway. The same way a flying spitfire or P51 has very little of the original plane left. The joke about old fighter aircraft is that you jack up the original canopy and slide the rebuilt(new) plane underneath.
The original old stuff belongs in meuseums for posterity, because if they are actauly used hard on a track there will really not be that much original stuff left after 50 or 100 years. Wheras repros allow many people to enjoy the "real" thing being driven in anger. In reality most "real period" cars are 30 to 70% repro and some are close to 100%.
And while I have not been to goodwood I have been to the vintage races at LRP many times and seen the original unrestored GTO as presented in this thread run on anumber of occasions as well as 250swb's etc being driven, and many times beaten by Alfa romeos. I understand, how seriously can you risk crashing or blowing 20 mill worth of priceless artifact. Therefore a hard charging authentic repro is in my opinion a great alternative, and i think the FIA agrees.
Car people can be terrible snobs, I remember one year they would not let some really killer e-types run because they had not "raced in period", so what. Its all about the real racing and the show.
But I do agree the probelm with repros is the owners who pretend they are period cars, these people are the true FAKES.
I am also well aware of repros and originals, having seen the favre cars when they were produced as well as an allegreti car, and some others that were shall we say less acurate. FIA has the right idea, as long as it is originaly made it is authentic if not original. I think that is how ferrari classiche explains some 275 4 cams as well.
Remember these cars were in the 70's not revered million dollar icons but used cars driven and enjoyed by people on limted budgets who truly understood and appreciated them for what they were. Without these true enthusiats the cars would not have survived. Many repros are built for the same reason by people who truly understand but dont have 20 million, this is preferable to people who have 20 million to sepnd but dont really understand what they have beyond the hype.
I guess we agree there are degrees of authenticity and acceptability, we may debate how the line is drawn, sadly many call repros fakes and total unacceptable, that is just snobbery, the idea is to appreciate the machine for what it is, bot when it was built. When it was built affects provenance and therefore value, not necesarily driving appeal usability or acceptability.
I agree with you, but not on the replicas racing with the real ones. For me they must at least have the original chassis (that's where usually the line is drawn between a restored car and a replica) and most, if not all of these replicas were using 250GTE chassis... To make my points stronger, when you mention airplanes, most of these warbirds are genuine (repaired and restored, but have the genuine bones) ;-)
This is the same problem with the one presented at the recent Geneva Classic as "one of the 36 gto's made..." Just a little "R" (for replica, reconstruction?)in the list diffused to the press.
In fact, the original is # 2813GT, a 250 coupe rebodied by G. Jones.
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