No one, even LH...... | Page 3 | FerrariChat

No one, even LH......

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by DF1, Sep 16, 2008.

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  1. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I think when he says "morally deserves" he is referring to the incident at Spa. And you know what - I agree with him. As it stands right now, he does deserve to win the WDC, and the "morally right" gap is 5 points, not 1 point.

    I think that if Massa won by a margin larger than 4 points, and if neither Lewis nor Massa are subject to any FIA craziness, then Lewis would absolutely agree that Massa is the rightful champ.

    I think you guys are reading more into this than is actually there.



    Oh, and telling people your height, weight, and bench press on the internet in response to any sort of verbal challenge (actual or implied) is lame, 100% of the time.
     
  2. IanMac

    IanMac Formula 3

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    If you are going to castigate someone for what he said it's better to begin by getting what he said correct. If the original quote is correct LH said he 'morally deserved', not he had 'moral authority', there's a big difference.

    There are two possible events in the background that might have led to him saying that. The first was the way in which he lost the championship last year. He blew it? Possibly. But there might be a less palatable explanation that he knows but we do not. The second was the result at Spa; he clearly felt he'd won fair and square but the victory (and the WDC points that might ultimately have won him the championship) were, he probably believes, wrongly taken from him by the FIA 'suits'.
     
  3. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    Hamilton is just playing mind games again, and the media to help him with it. And from the judge of all these threads here on this forum, it is certainly working, at least from the PR point of view. Remember, there is no such a thing as bad PR, just effective PR. Ever notice that he talks more and more trash as he faces more adversity ? He is only trying to see if he can psych out Massa and also Kimi into not being a factor in his title hunt. For some reason, I honestly think that Ron Dennis has a lot to do with what Hamilton is doing.
     
  4. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Psyching out? Massa parked little Lewis and his mouth in Hungary. That does alot more than "trash talking". Remember he "didnt defend well"? Lewis didnt defend diddly that day and he didnt whine about it either after having his words shoved back down his throat. Thats called SHOCK!. He completely underestimated Felipe.

    He has no claim to the title no matter what happend at Spa. Dont cut chicanes and you dont RISK penalty. He only need to look in the mirror for the cause of most of his troubles.
     
  5. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    #55 Drive550PFB, Sep 17, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2008
    I actually agree that the incident at Spa was unfortunate. While I think it was a fair penalty--because the drivers were told this in the the pre-race meeting--I do concede that the penalty has been pretty unevenly applied. (Vettel straighted a few corners last week with no penalty.) If I were in Lewis' shoes, I would be 'frustrated' over Spa for whatever reason. So, on that issue, I actually agree, I think, with you.

    On the issue of my statistics, I gave them simply because they are facts. And facts are entirely relevant to the discussion of whether I was hiding behind a keyboard from Lewis. You are wrong in stating that giving such statistics in response to a challenge is lame all of the time. These facts can be quite relevant, if only to show the folly of the counter-argument. One can read a lot into words. Your profile shows that you live in "Taxachusetts." From this, people can derrive a lot--as long as they know where that term originates and how it has been used in political and economic circles.

    Let's bring a little realism into this thread and I will extend the first measure of realism: If I were to be introduced to Lewis, I cannot imagine that I would open my conversation with Lewis by telliing him to "F-off." More likely, I'd say Hello and try to engage him in conversation about racing or the sunny weather in England. But, if he started acting like he seems to do in public--see the comments on here about him and his dad--I'd probably walk away and think he was an arrogant ________ (whatever).

    But, unfortunately, we do not have that luxury on F-Chat, so we have to type what we think. And, my opinion of his comments is that he is an '******,' which roughly translates to F-off.

    OK, you may take the parting shot. Criticize, cuss, call me whatever, I will not respond further, because it is time to move on.
     
  6. Tobias

    Tobias Formula 3

    May 22, 2004
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    The guy is brand new and I'm already tired of him. Drive the car and shut up.

    Go Massa!
     
  7. RP

    RP F1 World Champ

    Feb 9, 2005
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    No Michael, I disagree with you. I am not sure how you can make the statement that he deserves the WDC when the FIA hearing has not been held, and the season in not yet over. You don't know the final point difference either way. Not only that, there has been clarification of the rules and a video to show Hamilton's move likely did deserve the penalty.

    I think people are reading the actual words by Hamilton and interpreting them just as he stated. If Hamilton meant anything different by this statement other than what it appears to be, and because by now he has heard all of the criticism about his supposed arrogance, I would think he would be smart enough to think before he speaks and use sentence construction that is not misinterpreted.

    The Lewis is playing mind games BS is just silly. Does anyone really think that Massa or Raikkonen, or Kubica finds themselves in fear of Hamilton after hearing or reading his comments? I would think after they finish laughing, they actually are more motivated to beat him. I would guess that Kimi is thinking this is the dumb ass that ran into the back of my car in Canada while I was parked.

    But Hamilton keeps on ticking with questionable comments easily interpreted as arrogant. I do not see how else one can take Lewis Hamilton.

    I don't think anyone is reading more into this that is actually there, I would suggest that some of you refuse to see what really is there.
     
  8. Barrister

    Barrister Formula Junior

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    #58 Barrister, Sep 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here, Here!

    If those of you being so harsh could spend an hour with the guy, you would see how wrong you are. The man spent an hour with my son and I and was nothing but kind, gracious and a lot of fun. And it went way beyond just acting. There were no cameras (except mine) and there was nothing for him to gain from being so cool to us. If it had been for 5 minutes - which is the length of most oft-quoted, frenetic interviews with him - I would not put so much stock in it. But he spent most of his free time on his "day off" hanging out with a couple of fans from Orange County who he will likey never see again. From my experience, his nature and character are much different than how most of you - who have never actually met him - are judging him. I am fine with judging him for his on-track performance, but attacking his character, religion and sincerity off the track is a low blow - even for die hard tifosi.

    A part of the story that I rarely tell his how - after I sent a thank you email to Lewis through our host - Anthony Hamilton sent my son and I a bunch of McLaren swag. Then, a few days later, Lewis himself sent a personal email to my son and I wishing us well. It meant the world to my 13-year old son who dreams of being a race car driver himself. My chance at racing professionally has passed, but it inspired me too.

    Through my job as an attorney in the entertainment industry, I can tell you from personal experience that most celebs never even come close to meeting your expectations - let along exceeding them. Lewis did that for us and I appreciated it.

    I realize that us McLaren fans are in enemy territory when we come to a Ferrari fan forum, so I expect some good natured ribbing. But the articifically pumped up and overwrought Lewis hatred is getting a bit old.

    That's just my 2 cents.
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  9. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Well, Thank you Big D, someone that has met him.

    And As SRTMike and IanMac have pointed out, it pretty much takes the wind out of the bashers sails.

    The penalty in SPA was wrong, because he gave the place BACK end off, the rest was a grey area and the FIA.

    If it comes down to a point difference for the WDC over this call, it will be a hollow victory to the winner IMO.
     
  10. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Ronald,

    As for Hamiltons move - a vast vast majority of racing fans, pundits and those "in the know" feel that it was undeserved. Furthermore, Senna received a drive-through penalty for *exactly* the same offense as Massa but Massa only got a $10k fine and a reprimand for doing something dangerous... the same fine Hamilton got for showing up 90 seconds late to a meeting. Unbiased? Hardly. And it's not something that can be debated on facts or on "I know people in F1 and I know I'm right" - it's a matter open to debate and most people seem to feel it was unjustified.

    As for the WDC - my point was clear... as it stands now, Lewis is leading the WDC. If the title were done today, Hamilton is the winner. For him to say he is the moral winner is correct - as of today, he is right on the money. I (and a majority of people in the world who care about racing) feel the gap should be 5 points, not 1 point. If Massa wins, and it's less than by 4 points, then Hamilton has grounds to feel cheated and I (and many others) will agree with him. If it's more than 4 points, then I am sure Hamilton would agree that whoever wins is the rightful winner.

    As for what Hamilton meant, you say we should take it exactly as stated - and that's precisely what I did. He says he feels he is the morally correct winner. It's obvious he meant "as of today". I hardly think he is saying that, regardless of what happens in the next 4 races, he thinks he's the winner. But that is what many of you guys are ascribing to him - he never said that. Obviously he is talking in terms *as of now*, not "regardless of what happens in the next races". Ironically, you are advocating not reading more into what is there than what the man said... well, right back atcha! You are reading more into what he said than is there. As of right now, Hamilton *IS* the morally correct WDC winner. Period.

    As for mind games, yes I absolutely think it's possible to psych out other drivers. Even if *you* don't think it is, why should your view of the reactions of people you don't know, have never met, have never worked with, have never competed against, and have no connection to, trump the view of a man who is working with, competing with, associating with, talking with and racing with these people on a weekly basis? You always roll out the "what do you guys know, you don't even know anyone in F1" line, Ronald, but in this case, what do you know in comparison to Hamilton? You think you know how the other drivers will react better than he does? He spends hours with these guys. Who are any of us to claim a greater knowledge of the likely results of his comments than the man himself?

    The bottom line is that Hamilton is liked by some and hated by others. It has ALWAYS been that way with the great drivers. If Vettel starts to win tons of races, there will be a pretty quick seperation into the love-him camp and the hate-him camp. Same with Kimi... some love his quietness and short-ness. Many hate it. The same could be said of Schumi... he was always analytical and matter-of-fact and people hated it. Hamilton speaks his mind and isn't afraid to say what he really thinks, and people hate him for that too. Some folks acknowledge that they don't like him just because he's a winning driver, one of the (if not the) best on the grid, and drives for the competition. Others will come up with all sorts of justifications for why they don't like him to convince themselves that it's really because he's a $h!t, not because they just don't like that he's a great driver, driving for the competition, and beating up on their favorite driver/team.

    My .02

    :)
     
  11. tactical

    tactical Guest

    Jan 23, 2008
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    Now thats easy, its aimed at the haters who hate LH based on the fact that he is a "black" guy and nothing else.
     
  12. cig1

    cig1 F1 Rookie

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    No Way ... ??? ... do those kind of people still exist? ... I thought the modern world has gotten past that sillyness

    G
     
  13. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    No driver in the history of F1 has been fastest all the time. Massa was faster this year at Hungary, but IMO, Hamilton is still the more complete driver out of the two of them.

    All Hamilton has to do is to plant a seed and then let the other's own personality take over. This has happened many times before with other drivers in various series. IIRC, Senna, Prost and Piquet did it by casting just a little doubt in their competitors minds and make them second guess just that little more while on the tracks, as oppose to what Schumacher usually does, which is by down playing his speed at first by talking up the others than he completely demoralizes them by destroying them on the track during practice and/or in qualifying. Either way, thanks to their God given abilities, are extremly effective. Massa, Raikkonen and Kubica may be F1 drivers, but they are still human. You don't think Raikkonen feels depressed about the way his season is going so far ? You honestly don't think that Massa is affected by the weather report ? Even as a Massa fan, you have to admit that there are at least 3 other drivers that are better than Massa in the rain (Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton) if given the same equipements. Believe me, psychology is a large part of any sports and F1 racing is not immuned to any of it.
     
  14. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

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    +1
     
  15. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    #65 DF1, Sep 18, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2008
    Massa continued his pounding without words in Valencia and to an even larger margin of time in that win. Psychology has a lot to do with anything and in desperation people make mistakes, even the moral F1 god LH. His brainlock in Canada comes to mind, his frying of his tires at Monza and couldnt pass Felipe. He has his limits as well. Nothing does more to demoralize an opponent than physically beating him on the track. I dont see Felipe after Hungary as a peon compared to LH.
    The wet? Talk to Ferrari about the ABYSMAL performance of the current chassis. Felipe BEAT Kimi in the wet at Monza. Kimi didnt show up at all.
     
  16. Barrister

    Barrister Formula Junior

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    #66 Barrister, Sep 18, 2008
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  17. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    Massa and Hamilton are two different drivers that will deal with each situation differently. If Hamilton's trash talk works for him, then more power to him. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

    From what you know about F1, do you really think that Massa is a better driver in the wet than Kimi ?
     
  18. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Felipe is outscoring Kimi in wet or dry conditions. At Spa and Monza in particular as those were both wet. The chassis certainly doesnt help either one of them.
     
  19. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    Not talking about this season or just one race, but overall, do you think Massa is a better driver than Kimi ?
     
  20. cig1

    cig1 F1 Rookie

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    Why not look at just this season? You don't think Massa may have gotten better?
     
  21. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Stats say he is. I dont like to admit it at all. This year Felipe has the measure of Kimi. I expected Kimi to outpace Felipe even more than last year. Certainly not the case is it. Question is how he does next year. If he outperforms Kimi again, then the issue is settled and is not a 1 yr abberration. I was a Kimi fan while he was at Mclaren and I viewed Felipe as fast and mostly wreckless who seemed to get a lucky at times.

    He is outperforming Kimi, the WDC in equal machinery. Thats astounding frankly.
     
  22. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Absolutely.

    And like Muhammad Ali, part of psyching your opponent out can often be to taunt them and piss them off so much that they get so bent on beating you at all costs, that they make stupid decisions... like overcooking it in the rain, or being so afraid of losing points that they don't do anything aggressive and settle into low-points position, letting you capitalize on your own aggressiveness.
     
  23. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Kimi had bad luck in qualifying at Monza... it was not due to a lack of talent or inability to drive in the rain that he qualified in 14th. It was just that he had the wrong tires at the wrong time whereas Massa had the right tires at the right time.

    In the race, Kimi started 14th and finished 9th. Massa started 6th and finished 6th. Kimi majorly outperformed Felipe in the wet at Monza. Kimi is a significantly better driver in wet than Massa. Massa has shown himself to be a significantly better qualifier this year than Kimi.

    Kimi says it's because the tires take too long to heat up and "switch on" the way he likes. I have no reason to doubt him, but concerning wet weather driving performance, Kimi is leaps and bounds ahead of Massa.
     
  24. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    Yes, Massa has improved this year but IMO, Kimi is still the better of the two drivers overall, in the wet or in the dry. As for why Kimi is not doing as well this year as Massa ? I don't know but I think it is more of a Kimi issue than Massa's dramatic improvment. The F2008 may just happen to suit Massa more or maybe for whatever reason, Kimi has lost the motivation or the hunger since winning his title last year.
     
  25. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    http://www.manipef1.com/season/2008/standings.php - Very complete stats on the season. Kimi is basically been significantly outdriven by Felipe not counting a win that was blown up in Hungary. Felipe, his engineer and the car are all working better for him. In the wet he's keeping it on the track. Outside of Silverstone Felipe has put to rest his rain ability doubts. LH even spun at Spa and blew it at Monza.

    You made a point for me about qualifying - Felipe has been and Kimi hasn't. Start up front and life is good. Just ask Felipe. He is getting it done and racing smart and to win. No question.
     

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