Nick's 308 to 4.0 conversion

Just a few related musing that I though were interesting enough to pass along:

1. I own 5 cars; the 308 Ferrari is the least powerful of the bunch. The other makes of cars that I own have exotic names such as Volvo, Ford, Infinity, and Nissan.

2. This week alone Steve will re-sleeve at least 2 Viper blocks. In weeks past, innumerable C5 Corvettes have been re-sleeved. Both of these power plants are very healthy in stock trim, but their owners want more. I will try to get some pictures of these blocks if you are interested. The Viper block makes the 308 engine look like a smurf.

3. In addition, I wonder how many tens of thousands of dollars will be spend this week only alone to increase the hp of the lowly “Rice Rockets” of the world. This money is being spent despite the fact that this target market does not have a lot of discretionary income. Never the less, the automobile aftermarket is a billion dollar industry.

4. The 4-liter engine project is not yet complete, and has not really been marketed, however Nick has a list of people that have that have express a strong interest in obtaining one when available.

5. The 4-liter engine is not a crate motor. Annual production capacity for this motor is limited. Demand may very well exceed capacity.

6. My research indicates that there have been about 8,371 308 2-valve engines manufactured. All of them are at least 20 years old. Many, if not most of them could use a little freshening up.

With all this being the case, I hope that a few folks might be interested is a substantial upgrade for the 308.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis

 

To fellow Ferrari Chat members and Ferrari owners. I apologize for the airing of dirty laundry in a public forum; this really is not the place for such things. On the other hand I feel a need to address the personal attacks against me. If this is about truth then so be it.

Nick’s Forza Ferrari.com is viable. Has been a registered trade name since 2000.
The actual corporate license is posted on my website, if you go to www.nicksforzaferrari.com & scroll down to the very bottom of the page, there is a link that will show all 3 of my successful businesses listed on my license.
Nick’s Forza Ferrari .com is also licensed in the city of Blaine. I also own 2 Restaurants in Blaine, Nicki’s Fabulous 50’s Diner and Bella Marina an authentic Italian restaurant located on the waterfront in Blaine. I am also in the process of recording and writing new material for a new C.D. with my band Falcon Scream; after all I am Mr. Shred on guitar! www.falconscream.com will be up & running with in the next few days where you can hear some of my previous guitar work, in any event time to get to the truth!


Durable 1 Inc. is inactive. Representing oneself as a Corporation and claiming Corporate rights while not a licensed Corporation in the State of Washington is surely Fraud. Click on link below & you can see it’s an inactive corporation.
http://www.secstate.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?name=DURABLE+1+INC.&ubi=601766229

You are not searching for the truth Mr. Morgan; this is more of your game playing.

Your whole post sounds like a jealous child, attempting to discredit the great work of some very dedicated Ferrari enthusiasts.
The only person who ever mentioned anything about a shop is Matt Morgan.
The reason is that’s all he has, (he actually lives & sleeps in it!) This same person who is so distraught by competition in the area reported Nick’s Forza Ferrari.com to I.N.S. now called Department of Homeland Security as illegally operating a shop without a correct Entrepreneur Visa, being that I came down to the USA from Vancouver Canada in 1991.Thank you FOIA (for the non attorneys that’s freedom of information act) for being able to find out who filed the complaint. I have this documentation if anyone wishes to view it. I guess this alleged shop that appeared in the complaint has now just completely vanished! My wife & I are still here and the plot to get us out of the country and end Nick’s Forza Ferrari.com & my other businesses will not work.

Matt Morgan had never seen, smelled or heard a Ferrari till he met me. He used me to gain knowledge and access to certain suppliers for his financial gain, he has sent e mails with so “called information” to people who are on this chat site, & to suppliers to try to discredit me & my business & try to cause me financial hardship, I actually received them back from some of these people via e mail, some people believed him, some did not in any event these are facts & truths.

The Ferrari sign on his shop door is owned by me. Keep in mind that I got him into this business. The first set of Ferrari heads he worked on were mine, and now he is concerned about having me as competition? He uses clients cars that are in his shop for prolonged periods of time so he has a Ferrari to do research and development on because he is learning as he goes.
If you are so concerned about your client’s welfare, then I suggest that you complete work on the cars that are in your shop in a timely fashion, as I will be picking up my car hoist and some of the other specialty Ferrari tools of mine that are in your shop.

The address on our invoices is where we send & receive our mail and shipments. Our inventory is held in a private location as our sales are generated from website advertising, repeat customers & referrals from satisfied customers & Ferrari chat. I do not do oil changes, timing belts jobs, car servicing or anything that has ever required me to have a shop open to the public. I do have a new private R&D facility. As it says on my website
“ It is my policy to build on the brilliant engineering concepts embodied in the Ferrari engine. I maximize the inherent advantages of craftsmanship and skill over mass production. A major emphasis is spent on reducing the reciprocating weight to enable the engine to rev more quickly & adapting current state of the art technology for older Ferrari cars. I also supply OEM parts from Italy”

I am the Pacific Northwest authorized distributor of Capristo Exhaust Systems, I am a value added dealer for Electromotive Engine Controls, I am also a Power Chip development partner and official reseller, I am also authorized reseller for Ansa Exhaust Systems, CSC Exhaust Systems, Millie Miglia Exhaust Systems, Ronal Wheels and HRE Wheels. I also sell products by Brembo, Tarox, Evans Coolant, K&N, Energy Suspension and custom items such as double adjustable suspension packages for Ferrari’s test pipes etc. I work with other dedicated Ferrari Shops and even Authorized Dealers to help with supplying parts that are hard to get in the U.S.A. and of course we all know about the 4 Liter Engine Development Project.




The bottom line on the shop is, Mr. Morgan (Durable 1 not inc.) was the builder, he did the mechanical end, except for when he could not figure it out, then he would need my help such as engine timing on a direct coil ignitions or my expertise in helping him to get his dyno numbers up. I brought work in for him & his facility as he was making the majority of the money on labor & I made my profit from the parts. The car lift & some other specialty made tooling in his facility at this time still belong to Nick’s Forza Ferrari.com.

Mr. Morgan you have spent years trying to damage me. I am just getting stronger, I have learned very much about the American legal system over that last 2 years. Thank you for the education, I will use it to its full potential. My product lines have doubled since the end of our business relationship. You say you wouldn’t trust sending me large sums of money because I am not shop, I have been an approved Merchant of Visa, MasterCard, Amex and Discover since the year 2000 for nicksforzaferrari.com, yet you only accept checks and Pay Pal. Does that mean that customers should not buy specialty racing or performance parts from Summit racing.com or Jegs.com or any other what we call
“ Speed shops” unless they have a shop? Question, why do you not take credit cards or debit cards? I prefer to take credit cards because the consumer is protected. Have you ever tried to get your money back from Pay Pal if something has gone wrong. It is very difficult after 30 days. It’s also easier at the end of the year for your business if all of your transactions are via credit or debit cards as the bookkeeping is straightforward at tax time. You receive a print out from your merchant services for the year & you are pretty much done! I have held onto these thoughts for a long time out of professional courtesy but that has now ended. I could go on & on, but what is the point, look at his site & look at mine & look at the hundreds upon hundreds of satisfied customers I have including Ferrari dealers & hundreds of you on Ferrari Chat. The blood in my veins is Sicilian/Italian not Canadian! FORZA FERRARI!
Nick Scianna, Ferrari Chat’s oldest running sponsor.
www.nicksforzaferrari.com

 

About a year ago when I was working on the Mondial Z (as a concept) I contacted Nick by telephone (and have done regularly ever since). We spent quite some time discussing our separate projects and it seemed that it would be possible for our different activities to be mutually beneficial; I was developing a modern lightweight Mondial that could be used as a showcase and he was creating a 4ltr/400hp reliable powerplant (think of it, a long wheelbase chassis with a better power to weight ratio than a 360). Nick too could see advantages as with the composite nature of the Z project we could manufacture high quality carbon/kevlar parts to his specs at realistic prices.

Both projects are well underway but both have gone beyond their original targets, this is not unexpected especially when developing complex products.

I am not fully aware of Nick's business model however I suspect it is similar to mine, i.e., design, control and direct individual projects and subcontract to specialists when/where necessary/desirable. This is a recognised and valid business concept that is above criticism. The fact that NFF is FerrariChat's oldest sponsor should calm any fears that he is a fly-by-night operator, his reputation (and future sales) would be worth more than he would want to risk. The fact that Nick is not offering customer engines until the development and testing has been completed to his satisfaction is another indication of his serious intent.

Turning to the warranty issue, no doubt this will be addressed before customer sales commence, however I would imagine that subcontractor manufactured parts would be covered by the subcontractor through NFF (subject to normal caveats) and labour would be covered by Nick/Steve as appropriate. Obviously any warranty claims would be dealt with on a case-by-case basis and the customer must be aware that the engine builder has no control over how his customer uses or abuses the new engine.

I have my eyes open and I see no reason not to have faith in Nick, Steve and Mark or the enthusiasm, time, effort and money that they are investing in this project. I am not affiliated with NFF but I am looking forward to doing business with Nick as both a supplier and customer.

Clive
Mondial Z (or maybe "Mondial 408Z")

 

Hahahaahaaaa, that gave me a good chuckle.

 

Thanks for posting Nick. It explains the PM I got soliciting work.

 

I would be remiss if I did not mention one of our chief contributors whose technical advice and terrific products makes the 4-liter engine possible. We owe Steve Pressley of Evans Cooling special thanks for his participation. We are not only using Evans coolant, but their on going consultation has resulted in the redesign of the entire cooling system. This not only affects the 4-liter project but everybody that is looking to upgrade their cooling systems. Once again, the list of newly developed products can be obtained individually or as a complete package.

Corrosion:

The subject of corrosion is perhaps the least sexy topic imaginable for the Ferrari owner, right up until you try to disassemble your motor. I had removed all of the nuts and many of the studs associated with securing the intake runners. Unfortunately, the %*&$% thing would not budge. In fact, I think I could have suspended the weight of the entire engine and transmission from the intake runners and nothing would have happened. Finally after 8 hours of heating, pounding, and praying, I got the runners off. It was corrosion that had nearly fused the heads and the intake runners together. The studs were literally white with corrosion and around the coolant port the intake runner flange was seriously pitted.

I have to thank the people of Ferrari Chat for helping me with the removal of the heads. Once again corrosion was the problem. I fabricated the fixture mentioned in the archives of this website, after developing tennis elbow from beating on the heads to loosen them. No amount of heat would help. After a day and a half of fabricating the fixture the heads were pressed off. The heads were corroded around the studs and the coolant passages in the heads.

After the heads were off, I cleaned up the studs and soaked them in penetrating oil for days. I used a Snap-On stud puller and an impact gun to remove the head studs. It took many hours, but they all came out with quite a pile of corrosive material around the studs. This material was imbedded between the block and the studs.

The water pump housing can also be eroded by these insidious process.

The reason for all of this corrosion is the because of Ferrari’s use dissimilar metals, porous castings and the failure of the coolant prevent corrosion. I would simply suggest, that you consider Evans Coolant as a solution to this problem.

4-liter Cooling:

Because of the additional heat generated by this engine and the smaller coolant passages the only way that this engine can be properly cooled is by the use of Evans Coolant. It has a much higher boiling point than typical anti-freeze. This eliminates hot spots in the combustion chamber and upper cylinder walls. Anti-freeze with its lower boiling point tends to develop hot spots. These hot spots boil the coolant away from metal surfaces creating a vapor laver. Vapor transmits even less heat causing these areas to become and remain super-heated. This condition results in detonation and engine damage. For this reasons Darton spec’s Evans Coolant in their Honda MID engines and so does Steve for the 4-liter engine.

Longevity:

Where standard ant-freeze needs to be changed every few years, Evans Coolant can last the life of the car. Given how difficult it can be to get all of air out of the system, this would be a plus. Also the removal of the car’s coolant involves draining the block, radiator, and external coolant lines.

There are 308 Ferrari owners that are successfully using Evans Coolant whic predates the 4-liter project. For more detailed information on this product, I would refer you to the following website. http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html

I am not selling the stuff. I just need to use it.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis

Ps: It is actually a 4.1 liter motor…my 418 Ferrari. I wonder if it rhymes with anything cool?

 

Evans NPG Coolant is great technology!

You'll need to switch to a low pressure radiator cap,
and completely drain All of the water in your cooling system to use it.
And those of you that take precautions and carry all the right stuff on road trips, will want to carry a supply of NPG with you, as most stores don't sell it, and water and antifreeze are non compatible with it.
And it does cost a little more than normal coolant, around $25.00 a gallon.
So if your cooling system holds around say 8 gallons, then you'll spend $200.00 on coolant, which is just a spit in the bucket if your spending big money on an engine buildup.

 

I must respond to the posting of Matt "Kermit" Morgan and his attack on Nick of Nicks Forza Ferrari who was the first advertiser/supporter of Ferrari Chat and a supplier that I have done business with for over 5 years.

My only experience with Kermit was to send him $5000 and in return he destroyed both my Ferrari 308 QV heads. Mr. Morgan actually who was hired to port and polish my heads actually cut out so much metal in my heads that he put several holes into the water passages in one head and left such a small amount of metal in the other head that the water passage would have blown through at startup.

To make matters worse I had to hire an attorney in the State of Washington to get my heads back from him as well as contact the Sheriff in his County.

Today my orginal heads are used as door stops in my garage and I am out $5,000. Unfortunately I live in Florida and the process of suing him in Washington is cost prohibted.

The final chapter in this matter is that Nick who knew about what Kermit did gave me free of charge 2 replacement heads.

If anyone wants to see photo's of what kermit did to my heads (photo's taken by him) along with his e-mail admitting to what I have stated here I will be glad to supply them.

This whole process has kept my car off the road for over 2 years so all I can say is that buyer beware.

I will endorse Nick anyday of the week as I spent thousands of dollars with him and he has always back up'ed his parts and his work and in this case he saved me over $8000 for replacement heads which he was not obligated to do.

....Kermit did nothing to make amends (oh yeah Kermit did spend 6 months telling me how he was going to weld the heads to seal the holes) AND Yes he kept every single dollar.

As for Kermit you can figure that one out.

I am a firm beleiver that what goes around comes around and I look forward to seeing what comes around for Kermit.

Paul Sloan

And for that little group of Kermit Cheerleaders who think Kermit can do no wrong please explain how someone can take $5000 and destroy two heads and that is OK.

PS. The Machine here in FL that inspected Kermits destruction to my heads is the same machine shop that rebuilt Ed Davies 250 GTO heads.

 

I guess that's why the dyno numbers for the ported 308 throttle bodies haven't been posted yet by Durable 1...I suppose it's all vapor ware.

And I was naively waiting patiently.

Phil

 

Mark, you mentioned parts of the project would be available, as in the whole thing, or just parts of it.

What about those of use who would be interested in parts of the conversion. While I appreciate all the development work you've done, I'm not sure I want to go "all the way so to speak".

I suppose I should call, but Nick seems like a busy guy and I don't want to waste his time. What I'm interested in is porting the head, a 180 crank out of a 328, and maybe a bore and stroke to 3.5L to keep the stock cooling passages and system, and a few other items to increase power and torque. Not that I doubt the Evans cooling technology, but I'm not sure I want to go that far with my car. Not to mention some of the cryogenics stuff you mention sounds really expensive.

Should I just call and talk to NIck about this, or can I e-mail or PM You about this?

Thanks

 

I'm not a real tech knowledge guy, but I can say that Nick has helped me on several occasions when I had problems with my 308, and I have made purchases from him without any problems. Nick will discuss your cars problems at length with you, even at his own expense. He is a class guy, as far as I'm concerned, and I look forward to meeting him someday.

 

Sean

As previously mentioned, the various component parts of the 4-liter project will be available individually. The weak link in your proposed set up will be the connecting rods. The pin bosses and pins are a little on the small size and the rod bolts need to be upgraded. The 4-liter rods will not fit a stock crank. This is unfortunate because they are absolutely out of this world. The rod bolts are unbelievable and the bodies of the rods are machined out of billet. The 4-liter rods are essentially off the shelf racing rods. They are available in steel or titanium. The prototype will be titanium as shown in the pictures. Ordering custom Ferrari rods will be kind of expensive and have a bit of a long lead-time.

Your engine contemplates an 89 mm bore. With this bore the Evans NPG coolant and an upgraded water pump are not an option, they are necessary. You are going to need a new pump eventually anyway. The stock pump housing corrodes and the bearing and seals wear out. I will have pictures very soon that demonstrate the different between the two units. At that point I believe the choice will become clear.

Steve Demirjian will specify a custom cam profile it maximize your setup. Lift will be increase dramatically and duration will reflect the limitations of the stock fuel management system (Bosch CIS).

In the interest of durability, I would suggest that you use the upgrade cam drive bearings and cam pulleys. The stock bearings have been redesigned by Ferrari over the years, but they were never very good. The outer bearing is junk and inner bearing is marginal. This is one of those areas in which we have focused some time and energy. In addition the cam pulley design will allow for the upgrade to modern timing belts and longer timing belt replacement intervals. The bearings and belts go hand in hand. After about 30 thousand miles the stock bearings could very well be shot. With a better bearing setup you will be able to take advantage the upgraded belts and enjoy longer service intervals.

For the tuners out there, the cam pulleys will be adjustable so you will be able to change the cam phasing without removing the pulley from the camshafts. Advance and retard markings are scribed into the face of the pulleys so you will not have to guess as to how much you have altered the cam timing.

As for the cryogenic treatment, it’s not that expensive. I would suggest that you look into the Internet and check out what it will do for the physical structure of metal parts. If you blow off the cryo for the engine, please consider it for your rotors. Rotors and pad have been documented to last two to three times longer and stopping distances are shorter. The cost to do a rotor is about $50 per. We have a business relationship with one of the better cryogenics companies and we can hook you up.

The net savings of your setup will be in the neighborhood of about 6K.

Don’t hesitate to call Nick, he is a great guy and is totally pumped up about this project.

Thanks for the question,

Mark Lewis

 

Nick and Paul, thank you for taking time to post that information -- it helps put various other comments in perspective.

 

Matt, thanks for the reply. I appreciate the input. While I am still at least a year away from starting a project like this, I will definitly consider it if I ever do rebuild the engine. Of course that means I'd be keeping the car forever and I'd have to forgo my Boxer purchase...

 

I have purchased items from both men and have found both to be great to talk to and work with. Neither has treated me bad or lost my business trust.

As far as the throttle bodies go I am sending in my 348's to Matt this week for him to do some oversize work on and will dyno them when I get them back in the March time frame. I dyno'd my 348 in a climate controlled garage (70 degrees with 50% humidity) a few weeks back just to get a initial measurement (283 rwhp) and the numbers are very close to what I dyno'd at the same place over a year ago (281 rwhp).

Also just as an fyi I decided to test the K&N again to see true dyno numbers and can honestly report a true 14 rwhp gain by changing from the stock element to the K&N after over a year of use. I did the same test my last trip to the dyno and it was 14 as well with the K&N brand new.

John

 

There was a 308 here in Atlanta that had a 330 V12 in it...but I havn't seen it in a while.

 

John, 283rwhp equates to 325~330hp at the crank assuming a 15% drivetrain loss. Good numbers indeed! I am amazed you saw a +14hp with the addition of a K&N filter alone. Nice to see quantified results for a change. Is your 348 stock or have you made other modifications? I may put the K&N back on my 348 spider with tubi!
Please keep us updated regarding the throttle body mods. Dyno results would be most interesting. Thanks, John.

 

The root of the problem with the 308 has been discussed. I have attached the some data generated by our review of this engine. It can be concluded that the stock engine does not flow much air. The rate of flow tops out at about .300 cam lift. Total cam lift is about .300, as is total valve lift. This lift is very modest by today’s standards. In addition the ramps of the camshaft open the valves relatively slowly.

Relax, Steve Demirjian has a solution. Don’t sell your car. Don’t park your car. And heaven forbid, don’t crush your car. These things are fun to work on, and the potential rewards are unbelievable.

It is my belief that this also poses an opportunity. The 308 is a great platform for logical next step in today’s tuner car revolution. By making the proposed modifications to the heads, cam profiles, and displacement, this engine will really come alive.

However it is realistic to quantify what it is we have before we are engaged in the process of making changes. The graphs and numerical data quantifies our conclusions about the baseline engine. This information is not intended to insult anybody for owning one of these cars. In fact, I own one. It is possible that in five years you may well look back and think how visionary you were to purchase these cars before their potential was completely demonstrated. The underlying premise is that as good as the 308 is, it can become much better.

Thanks,

Mark Lewis

PS. If the Ferrari flow test fixture is made to these standards, can you imagine how your engine will turn out?
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Mark Lewis, you have an email.

 

Michelotto found the ex valves & ports were too big in 2v heads.

 

The following are excerpts from emails on the topic referenced above from Steve Demirjian. They have been heavily edited to keep proprietary stuff private. Hopefully the will help you understand the charts.

“ The intake to exhaust flow ratio is above 90% through much of the flow range. Generally exhaust flow around 70 - 75% of intake flow is more than adequate. This ratio would be through the intake manifold. I flowed this head with a radiused plate on the intake port. Thus the ratio would be 100% for much of the lift range had I flowed through the intake manifold. Bottom line, one needs to concentrate their efforts on the intake side of the head. The exhaust flow is more than adequate as is. I believe I can maintain the exhaust flow with a properly shaped seat and the required smaller valve to enable a larger intake valve to be fitted. Time will tell. Wish I had more help so I could spend some time on the heads.

If you look at the graphs, the green squares show a typical potential flow for a hemi head with valve sizes as tested. One can easily see that the intake flow falls far short of what a well designed port with that valve size, 1.653", should flow at > .250" lift. In fact, the head should be able to flow in excess of 200cfm @ .450" lift. Not going to happen with these lousy ports because they lack a good short turn radius. The idea is to rework the head with larger intake valve to enable a larger short turn radius to be formed.

…is to increase the intake valve size to…… while reducing the exhaust valve diameter by roughly … I expect the engine to produce good torque with the relatively small diameter intake ports = high velocity. Most of my attention will be given to the bowl area and short side radius, floor rework of the intake port. “

Thanks,

Mark Lewis

 

Yes I am very happy with how the car runs at the moment. I have more than just a K&N as I have been working on this car for a while now tweaking and tuning and all around wasting money.

On the car at the moment I have Koenig test pipes and a tubi for the exhaust. On the intake side I have just the regular K&N and soon will have some oversized throttle bodies. I also have a set of PowerChips in the car that I bought before Nick started selling them directly from them in Aussie land.

Coming this year I hope to port and flow the heads as well as get a set of new cams. I am looking for someone to do the porting work at the moment and trying to get some estimates for next winter. I have looked at the Koenig cams when i was over in Germany the past month but wasnt to impressed with the quality so I am going to keep look there as well.

However this might all change if I get the urge to supercharge it. With mods I have A.D.D. sometimes!

 

The attached photos are presented to illustrate the marked differences between the stock sleeves and the 4-liter sleeves. The first picture shows the all of the additional machining processes that are made to the 4-liter sleeve. Each of these cuts is there for a reason. Please observe the following:

1. The 4-liter sleeve not only has a larger flat machined into the flange, but the area of the bore below the flanged is siamesed as well. This provides additional strength. In addition, when the sleeves are installed there are no areas on the deck surface that are not filled with the flange of from the sleeves. The stock sleeves leave gaps at the outer edge of the block. Ferrari did this so they would not have to go to the expense of having to spec two flange designs. The 4-liter has two separate designs.

2. There are two O-ring grooves cut into the lower bore of the sleeve. This provides redundant protection for coolant leaks. The stock sleeve has one O-ring.

3. Fins are cut into the upper bore to provide more surface area to dissipate heat.

4. A flat coolant passage is cut below the siamesed portion of the bore similar to Steve’s LS1 sleeves.

5. The 4-liter sleeve is a lot larger than the stock sleeve.

The other pictures basically show the differences in size between the two sleeves.


Thanks,

Mark Lewis
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I spoke with Kermit last night, and he expressed the following concern:

The reason that he has not replied to any of the posts is not that he has no answers. It is because he has been electronically banned for 30 days as a punishment for having “spammed” a poster in the Private Message section. He is not even allowed to read a post as the block placed on his account will not allow him to access the board at all, so he has no way of knowing what is being said. The suddenness of the sanction took away his right to defend himself, however he will be back after the time is up.