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New Tesla faster than a mclaren around laguna seca

Discussion in 'General Automotive Discussion' started by amenasce, Sep 22, 2020.

  1. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I didn't, no. I guess I'm more ranting at the average Tesla cult fan rather than anyone here. Look on social media/youtube video and the Tesla fans are claiming it as some sort of production record. But that's what Tesla does all the time...''plant the seed'' and the cult will take over and claim it as fact.

    The nurburgring car was an electric racecar. Full on slicks and aero, their lap time they proudly presented to the outside world was nothing more than the nurburgring broken up in sections, and not set as a continuous lap.

    The problem is, Tesla proudly announces the laptime, but doesn't ever admit what spec the car was...it's akin to Ferrari setting a laptime with a 488 GTE, claiming the Ferrari 488 GTB can do a crazy laptime...but never corrects the fact it was in fact the race car.
     
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  3. Tenney

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  4. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    Well I am sitting here right now at Laguna Seca as I am part of Ferrari Challenge this weekend here. And I am very familiar with Tesla to say the least.

    Driving the Challenge car here, there are plenty of people here pulling 1:27 to 1:28s in a modified version that is a cross of the 488 and Pista optimized for racing (downforce, etc.). But it still is in the same weight zone as those cars. The 488GTE and GT3 cars are group builds by Michelloto.

    Now given this, if you look at the optimization being done for the SF90, yes it will for sure be faster around Laguna than this Tesla, it also comes down to who is driving the car. And what track condition is at Laguna that day. Laguna has extremely wide variance based on the amount of sand that has blown onto the track, etc.

    Take all of the cars on the same track on the same day with the same driver for the exact comparison.

    Also, if you read the tester’s comment he mentions how great the car’s acceleration is compared to other high performance cars. But he only mentions “acceleration.” That is a very careful way of not damaging his reputation with other manufacturers or the racing community.

    In terms of Tesla telling the truth. I can believe this was in a standard sedan. They have not under delivered on performance statements in the past and have nothing to gain by doing it now.

    To me, the point of brand bragging rights is important here. 99.99% of Tesla drivers have no clue what a race actually means. They just think it means 0 - 60 mph. This translates over to brand halo.

    IMO, the cars have a clinical look that suggests high performance transportation. Trust me, I know this company at a very early and deep level. It was designed to be a fast motor car company.

    Ferrari’s DNA is a racing company that monetizes through cars. If that means moving to hybrid or electric, Ferrari will do that. Ferrari is focused on winning races. The cars design and function is built around that. And the consumer cars bring that out.

    Tesla cars don’t and won’t. Ever. It’s not in the DNA of the company and will never and can’t change. This has always been a company about technology innovation, not about winning races and most importantly, giving the car customers that feeling.
     
  5. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
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    ... might not even be car enthusiasts?

    Crazy freakin' quick in a raceless system!
     
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  7. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #31 boxerman, Sep 29, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
    I agree.
    Not sure the tesla can do 3 hard laps even, maybe one full tilt lap. Even if the battery could jack it, which is questionable, no tires will hold up to 5000lbs lappign that fast. Mike Flewit at Maclaren has said that for an eectric to match a Senna, ie lap as fast for 30 mins and then recharge in 20 to go out again batter energy density needs to incresae by 8 fold, and even then there is still a weight issue. Objectively then for track use Ice has its place still. Objectively though for realistic road car performance and a one lap thrill test its already over. The Lotus evija will show the objective performance of an electric hypercar, good and bad, but the "objective" metrics will blow everything away. .

    Your supercars point is spot on in many ways. The more modern supercars are so extreme in potential performance and so bland untill near 10/10ths, as you imply the obsolete ones are really more fun on road. Or subjectively the older suepercars have a lot more to offer.

    I do not lament the dawning of the battery era, modern sueprcars are already imo losing the subjective plot. Were already seeing a split in the road,. wer'e at the era of the singer porche, a "new" classic car reimagined with knowledge of time to a perfection and without the compromises mass marketing required.. The singer embodies everything that makes a true ice sportscar great and you get an essentialy new car with modern reliability, not some old car needing lots of care .

    In time we will see "Singerized" 355's or for that matter a "Singerized" 360+ powered 288 styled 308s, lighter better looking far faster and more reliable.

    To this new breed I would also add the component car industry(not the kit cars part), something like a Kirkham Cobra, or even the types of Etypes Eagle offers or a a Bell Stratos. then we have tool room copies to order pur sang Bugattis and even .a RS williams Aston DB4 Zagato, plus some totaly new build 250SWBs being produced.

    The evocative Ice supercar is far from dead, the choices are proliferating in a new way, niche products built of very high quality, new and reliable, free of much legislation, pure of form, cars far more focussed on driving and subjective experience. The source may not be an oem like ferrari, but the cars are certainly there and there will be more due to market demand.

    Electrics wont kill Ice cars, but as per my contetion above they will make them more of a niche with better product than we now enjoy. However while "brand" badging may not be there for the cachet of "investment" for thsoe who know, singer,some component cars, and tool room cars are already awesome. 3 d printing is going to make it all easier than ever.

    Ill take my 308 platform with lightweight 288 CF bodywork down to 2600lbs, Daytona style seats that actualy hold you, the classic cockpit and dials, a leaned on by cosworth 360 motor(same block as 308, maybe 400-450 ponies) or leaned on 430 motor if that fits, an porperly tuned exhaust for just the right sound, not fetetred by cats or too loud. Modern shocks, springs, brakes, wheels and tires, with the wheels not too big just big enough to fit modern rubber. A motec system even gives you staged traction controll to deal with all that power. I'd take that "singereized" 308 over an F8 already.

    Its not the end of cars you love, theyre going to reincarnate to the perfection of our imagination.
     
  8. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for this, great post and it puts a lot of "performance" in perspective as well as clarity in "brand dna".
     
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  9. Jaguar36

    Jaguar36 Formula Junior

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    Keep in mind the current Model S has battery/motor technology that is 5-10 years out of date now. The Model 3 Has been able to do multiple hot laps without significant performance degradation. Certainly not a full race worth, but more than just one or two. The Plaid Model S will likely have even better battery, inverter and motor performance. (Although who knows how much at this point since its still basically vaporware)

    Secondly with regards to the curb weight, keep in mind the Model S is a 7 seat family sedan, its not designed as even a sports car let alone a supercar. Its closest competitor would be something like the E63 S Wagon, which only weighs about 260lbs lighter (4,670lbs vs 4,940lbs). Now while the Mercedes probably has more weight devoted to stuff like seats and sound deadening its still not that far off. So while EVs are certainly heavier, its not fair to compare a big ole model S with something like a 355.
     
  10. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    im now a big tesla fan after my daughter just got a tesla y. ive been amazed at how good it is especially compared to my brand new audi rs5 sedan. im going with my sil to track later this month to see how it works out. my guess is it will be no more compromised than my much more expensive, rennsport ice car. i will report back afterwards, but in mean time tesla plaid is an incredible concept to me. all they need to do is improve battery cooling and it should be fine for a session hpde esp if there is a supercharger station nearby.
     
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  12. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Rookie
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    That’s astonishing on about 10 different levels. Not my cup of tea, but I have to tip my cap. Imagine the driver hitting more apex’s....
     
  13. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    i think driver was sebastian vettel
     
  14. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    You can believe that when tesla produces something like its roadster, the objective performance is going to be so vast, the 99% of "sportscar" buyers who buy based on objective numbers will fall for it, regardless of the sound, hell they already love turbos and paddles cause they're "faster" .

    Its great though because an Ice sports car wont have to deal with the demands of comfort and conectivity. Without having to pander to the older "objective" stats really a Gt car buyer, the ice car can return to its lightweight powerfiul NA motor hard core roots. Can you imagine the new Dallra with like the radical v8 motor in it on one hand and Kirkham cobra on the other.
     
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  15. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    Yes it seems like the way forward will have to be lightweight power like the T.50. I hope the next generation replacement for the LaFerrari will show some direction here. Either that or the volumes and price will stay in the hypercar zone like LaFerrsri and T.50 to keep volume down to avoid regulatory emission overload for the whole production volume. Just my guess.

    Even though I have F ice cars, I am waiting on the delivery of an SF90. I am excited to compare the two. I don’t know what to compare it to in my ice class of F cars. The only other large F cars I have are the 812 and the TDF. Neither of these are and will be like the SF90. For sure not the TDF, the most exciting car out of the lot. And challenging to extract the maximum performance. Which actually makes it fun.
     
  16. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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  17. gzachary

    gzachary Formula Junior
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    Oops sorry my editing error in HTML...

    based on our tesla S at home which is 2 years old, performance degrades significantly after 3 laps of a track requiring heavy braking and then re acceleration. A track that has multiple high speed straightaways that cause maximum drain will eat the battery. This is a track very different than Laguna where there is not peak discharge occurring because there ae not multiple high speed straightaways that will eat the battery.

    Laguna, IMO, works well because 1/3rd of the track time is involved in braking. Less insane maximum peak battery drain that was shown to devastate the Tesla battery. This would be an advantage for Tesla in times compared to other tracks like Laguna but not , like Sebring or COTA. Would be interesting to see tests there as well.
     
  18. NaO

    NaO Karting

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    I like your input, and was really enjoying reading your post. Then I got stuck on the word ekectrics, that’s a seriously hard word to pronounce. And one that cannot be said 5 times fast.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  19. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Was at the track yesterday and someone was testing a senna gtr. Something like 2800lbs 900 hp active aero and also 2900lbs of downforce.
    The coment was you have to be young and really fit to handle the forces the car puts out especially lateral gs.

    Further conent was that the car is so capable you would literally needs weeks and weeks of concurrent seat time on track to get your brain calibrated enough to drive the car anywhere near it’s limit, assuming
    You had the skill to start with.

    The test driver made the point that a car with balance and balanced performance is more fun and rewarding, and for most something one can actualy learn from and grow. Let’s say a cayman gt4 or its track variant is the current sweetspot,

    Where in the f16 era where cars are now more capable than all but a few drivers ability. Yes the objective number astound but It’s way better to be able to drive a car to its limit and be balancing all the forces On the limits than than having a car with so much performance that you’re always well below its level and just piloting/suggesting where to go.
     
  20. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    i get your point but senna gtr is like a ferrari fxxk. total crazy car above challenge and cup cars. its the 'supercar' category like f8, huracan, 720, gt3, and even c8 that counts.
    sound is the big difference to me at this point. gt3 over tts. huracan over f8. zo6 might be the one if it has a na 9k rpm engine. and gt4 is up there too
     
  21. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

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    #44 freshmeat, Oct 10, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
    Apple Watch, but I have a Patek too that I hardly wear. The Apple Watch is capable of so much it’s hard to not wear it...I don’t even carry my phone much these days.

    I can disable/enable my house alarm, lock/unlock my doors, answer calls/texts, listen to music, get map directions, pay for anything touch-less, calendar appts, monitor my fitness/health etc etc all on my wrist. The Patek (5167R) is beautiful to look at, emotive but that’s about it; I wear it to weddings, black tie type events...which are far and in between these days.

    I think Tesla Plaid is only sad for the spectators...that’s where the McLaren comes in. For track days, I personally would still get a mclaren though...maybe until the Roadster comes out! The sheer speed, low running/maintenance cost on an EV etc are too compelling to ignore.
     
  22. m5shiv

    m5shiv Formula 3

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    The battery in "plaid" is not the battery in your car.
     
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  23. m5shiv

    m5shiv Formula 3

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    All this "winning".... It's been 12 years since the last Constructors' win, and 13 since the last Drivers' win.
     
  24. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Gt3s are great, but a little big.
    Saw a matt Hurricane performante love the shape and everything out it is exotic, far more so than any of the others.
    For street cars hard to beat a Gt2Rs on track.
    Like you I'm excited about the z06.
    Currently imo the Cayman gt4 is a sweetspot.
     
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  25. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    havent driven the gt4 (or even been passenger) but issue all the reviews harp on is the gear ratios. its geared so 2nd gear goes very high mph so never shifting between 2 and 3. its almost like a cvt single gear transmission. can swap out the gears but thats big $$. supposedly the pdk thats coming will have better ratios so that will be solved for those who dont want stick shift.
    deman race shop in ny makes frankenstein caymans with 500++ hp gt3 engine swaps, suspension, aero, etc. same cost as gt3 but probably better all around car. very interesting.
     
  26. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    would like to see lambo come out with a huracan evo sl superlight. rwd, aero, stripped, carbon fiber, etc. like the performante but rwd and lighter. that would be a nice track car.
     
  27. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    so i took my newbie son in law to limerock with his tesla y long range and it was fantastic. so fast and agile with very controlled body motion. steering is artificial feeling just like a video game but its accurate and easy to control. and charging was easier for him than my gas audi. i can only imagine how a model 3 plaid with performance suspension, brakes, wheel/tire, and aero will be. maybe best sports sedan there is.
     

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