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NEW MID ENGINED V6 (LITTLE BROTHER)

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by ajr550, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
    6,265
    Pity Ferrari cannot produce something like that ....
     
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  2. day355

    day355 Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2006
    715
     
  3. day355

    day355 Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2006
    715
    #578 day355, Jul 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
    Nowadays, Ferrari is producing heavy and powerful GT cars, no more sport cars.
    Marchionne s projects is based on a luxury product. The new Dino project is lost.
    It was the way to produce a short vase on a light sport car. They was agree, disagree four months later...in fact, it change many times by day...
    Marketing is thinking that majority of customers are waiting for a HP storm...
    We re a minority, because F - cars are slowly becoming ego s cars.
    Everytime its possible i repeat tirelessly " make a 600 LT , we don t care about HP, we need a real sport car " !!!
    I think they totally don t care...and the time will come hybrid sales ll be so low, it ll be too late because drastics norms will no longer allow to produce it.
    Sorry guys, with F 171, F 173 Ferrari is another brand
     
  4. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 Veteran
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    Nov 25, 2012
    8,652
    Arizona
    Isn’t this out of Ferrari’s control somewhat? Increasing regulations are forcing them to go hybrid route. You’ve mentioned the 600 LT several times but that also is the last of an era. Mclaren’s replacement for the sports series is A hybrid due out likely later this year or early next year.

    No one likes the direction we are going but I don’t think it’s Ferrari’s fault.
     
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  5. day355

    day355 Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2006
    715
    #580 day355, Jul 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
    Absolutly, but until now it was possible !
    moreover, NA V8 could have been extended by a generation instead of TT, with the payment of the fine...
    But, they want increase significativly HP and not invest on NA belonging to the past.
     
  6. 9nb

    9nb Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2012
    251
    Have to agree with @day355 manufactures are more interested in profit margins and satisfying shareholders to ever growing dividends and ROI, they aren’t interested to what is good for the brand over time or it’s loyal fan/customer base.

    Couple that with the whole ‘Instagram, showoff let me drive my hypercar around Knightsbridge and Rodeo drive at 20mph so everyone knows I’m rich’ crowd and you end up with products, not works of art and passion. That would be acceptable from brands like Volvo or Toyota where production numbers, volume and churn-out is the entire business plan. However for Ferrari, it’s the end of the road.

    At least Porsche remembers their purists and satisfies them with GT products, while making their shareholders, the broader VW group and the regulators happy with things like Taycan and hybrid Cayennes/Panameras.
     
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  7. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 2, 2005
    1,963
    Earth
    Exactly - Not a hard model to follow and if the "enthusiast" has to pay some extra noise, non-GPF etc tax I am sure they would. I for sure would
     
  8. Ale55andr0

    Ale55andr0 Karting

    May 23, 2019
    66
    Still I cant' see it: 1000hp are not "so much" in the era of bugatti and koneigwhatevertheycallitegg

    And, as far I've read the laferrari successor is even less~same powerful than a SF90 stradale o_O

    ...so a v12 turbo not sound so unlikely after all :D
     
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  9. 9nb

    9nb Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2012
    251
    #585 9nb, Jul 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
    100% agree, but it would depend on how much more they’d have to pay. If Ferrari could somehow negotiate a non-GPF tax with regulators (I’m not sure if that’s possible or not) and then pass the cost to the customers, most would be happy to pay. Imagine a modern 355 concept, as in a NA V8, manual, with just a radio and no silly outdated screens, lightweight aluminum construction (~1350kg) and more modern styling akin to the F8 or P80C, price it similarly to a Pista. Collectors and enthusiasts would be stampeding each other to get an allocation and they could limit supply like they did with the Pista.

    Ferrari should have learned from the 911R and Speedster. The Rennlisters were more than happy to pay premiums, beg their dealers, and buy hybrid Panameras to get on the list for those two. Ferrari should have seen that and immediately thought on how to bring back the manual (imagine if it were introduced on the Monza SP?!) and then trickle it to other vehicles. Even if they just left it to the Iconas it would have been something.

    Alas, my imagination runs to imagine a better Ferrari but we must live in this reality. One were stock prices, marketing and misguided politicians dictate the world around us.
     
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  10. day355

    day355 Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2006
    715
    Not for the V12 !
     
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  11. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    5,915
    Bournemouth, UK
    That used to be a Ferrari... back in 1999 and it was called the 360. This is 2020. Ferraris have always been about power and speed.
     
  12. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
    6,265
    Ferrari are moving more up market (expensive) each year.LB will cost somewhere near the Pista ,your 'average' sports car buyer cannot afford that, and likely a lot of folks who can afford it are not convinced by the whole hybrid stuff.
     
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  13. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    3,286
    Australia
    #589 Shadowfax, Jul 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
    Sports cars have always been about power and speed, handling etc - just some Brands are more focused on maintaining roots along with the traditional elements associated to providing maximum excitement for the enthusiastic driver.

    Of course this situation is no longer necessary now for Ferrari with the new market shift which widely seems to prefer luxury and image (status symbol - and the bragging that goes along with it) along with the ease of driving and access to the performance of the engine. It has become even more about owning with even less using, and so long as performance bragging rights are there and can be claimed over a dinner table or bar then that is the main thing (i.e status superiority - ie big dick little dick etc) . And of course a stat sheet to confirm who has the biggest dick at the bar table wins all even if the owner couldn't drive a hot knife through butter.

    Traditional elements such as sensory feedback from the controls, the delicacy of feedback from a light weight chassis, sound and vibration are seen now to be more of an unnecessary bother to the new market than being an essential requirement. This is all now being evidenced by the manifestations of huge weight gains and over complex electronic wizardry to control the lard and excessive HP now required to combat that lard - none of which is likely to prove reliable - not that it will matter to most as the cars are un likely to get driven too much anyway... Should keep the workshop staffs all in a job though.:D And the tire dealers will be laughing all the way to the bank.
     
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  14. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 Veteran
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    Nov 25, 2012
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    Arizona
    What about F8 VS. Some folks seem to think it’s coming. Any updates on it?
     
  15. Ale55andr0

    Ale55andr0 Karting

    May 23, 2019
    66
    It may be a good (and logical) contender for the 765LT (if they even care)
     
  16. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
    472
    Hockenheim, Germany
    I think Ferrari really should create an own product pillar similar to Porsche GT products. Track focused, viceral and exciting cars. Nothing more but also nothing less. So that could easily be the use case for a newly interpreted, maybe downsized V12 which doesn't aim to reach crazy power figures. Ferrari already admitted that the strategic role of the V12 has to change as it's no longer the most powerful powertrain in the portfolio.
     
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  17. day355

    day355 Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2006
    715
    Until now,nothing change, no F 8 VS
     
  18. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    5,915
    Bournemouth, UK

    My point is that Ferraris have always been about the engine, the power and absolute speed; not a featherweight chassis and/or playful tactility. A Lotus/Alpine competitor they never were!!! People who are asking for a new 400 CV Ferrari, with a manual gearbox, don 't really want a Ferrari. What they want is a Cayman, an Evora or even an A110. If internet fora were existent in the 1960s, I could have imagined grumpy old owners saying that nobody needs a 300 CV 275. Give us a lightweight, 150 CV car instead, they would have cried... That wouldn 't have been a mid-1960s Ferrari though, it would be an early 1950s Ferrari.

    Regarding driver involvement, let us agree to disagree. For me a sports car should be quick, precise and provide feedback (which admittedly is a vague and debatable concept). Vibrations and unnecessary intrusive clutter is not included in my idea of recreational driving.
     
  19. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
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    Ferrari was synonymous with performance which includes more than just the engine. This is inclusive of the entire drivetrain and suspension - essentially the total package. They have gotten softer except for the VS versions. They have for the most part become daily drivers which is fine as this is what the masses want. The more dialed in cars, i.e. CS, Scud, TDF, Pista are what some of us look for instead. The other manufacturers are doing the exact same.
     
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  20. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    5,915
    Bournemouth, UK
    Beg to differ. Evolution in suspension and chassis technology (magnetorheological dampers for example, other things too though) have allowed manufacturers to make cars both a lot more planted and more compliant as well. This stands true for all modern sports cars, not just Ferraris. A fast car doesn 't need to be stiff as a corpse in order for it to be a proper sports car anymore. Moreover, a more absorbent suspension affords better purchase on broken surfaces. I don 't know if you 've ever raced, but a lot of the times racers make the suspension (coils and/or dampers and/or sway bars) softer and the car becomes quicker!!! If you don't believe me, just go through the Gs that modern cars pull compared to their stiffly sprung ancestors. If rock-solid was the way to go, cars wouldn 't have a suspension at all...
     
  21. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Feb 24, 2011
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    Race cars suspensions are so stiff they get the wheels off the ground. Suspension geometry and rubber gives you the grip not soft suspensions. Ferraris have always been sports cars, never the fastest or best handling but decent. These days they are competing with Lambo and McLaren so they have to step their game up across the board.
     
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  22. day355

    day355 Formula Junior

    Jun 25, 2006
    715
    Just a question; are you really considering 700 hp for the road is not enought ?
    I ve made by the past 50 000 kms in 355 Challenge and with 400 HP it was really fun...
    Increase of HP in modern Ferrari are just stupid for a road use. SF 90 remains actually the most symbolic F -car .
    99 % of the owners can t exploited so much HP. It s ego s car area for the king of straight lines.
    I assume prefering the feedback in a car to a cataclysm power , and so, i prefer 1000 times an F 40 with an half of power, than a SF 90 apple car play !
     
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  23. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 Veteran
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    First I’ve heard that race cars make their suspensions softer. Never have heard of that concept before.
     
  24. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    5,915
    Bournemouth, UK
    #600 REALZEUS, Jul 5, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
    Serious race cars don't, but you are mixing race tracks with public roads now. Even in rallying, on tarmac roads, the suspensions are not hard as a rock. ou need to have some compliance. The only competition vehicles without a suspension are go-karts.


    More often than not they have been the fastest and best handling cars in their respective segments.


    Funny you should mention McLarens, which have some of the most compliant suspensions in the supercars realm...


    I consider even 400 CV too much for the road, unless one is on the Autobahn or at the stop lights, racing other crazy fast cars. That 's one thing though. The other is that a supercar has to be at the forefront of the performance envelope for its time. 400 CV was great 20 years ago; a new Ferrari with just 4oo CV wouldn 't be a Ferrari. That 's why Enzo named that little V6 "Dino".


    Depending on the track, you may want to make your front or back end softer, or the overall set-up for that matter. If you have turn in understeer, for example, you slacken your front sway bar and/or dampers, in order to increase front end bite.
     

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