A little look at what made racing what it was. Please note the comments relating to the mechanics...........Gordon Kirby - Auto Racing - The Way It Is
What class do you race and at what level and in what size fields? I've raced SM, FM, SRF, Viper Cup and MX-5 Cup, all spec classes and have won in most and if you want to run up front you need to budget about 2x cost of the car per season, with a season being 5-8 race weekends. If you simply want to participate, the budget can be way less, as you don't need a top engine, can have older tires that also last longer because you are not using them as hard, and less prep and development in the car. This car, run hard and up front will be a six figure proposition IMO.
Again, are your paying to have all the work done? Do you have an in-house engine builder? Chassis fabrication? Welding? My point again is that many racers over pay for services. In this world of "hi tech", we continually seek more, better, faster. Is it?? Or is just another sales pitch to increase pricing. Example....racing electronics. How much for the latest, greatest thing a ma bob. Did it really drop your lap times or is it just along for the ride? Budgets are what you want to spend. If spend wisely you can build a fast car without going thru the roof on the budget. Classes I have raced in include F/A, IMSA, Indy Cars. I was a much younger person then but I watched a lot of money get wasted and equipment get tossed on the self because it didn't work.
I could not agree more. There is a lot of talent not utilized within a team that could save HUGE money.
Let's see it, you never know, as there are more than a few racers here, and even of prototype cars. ;-) As for the NASA prototype car, I'm not sure what you get when you combine elements of a "spec" class with a "prototype" class car. Spec implies that car development efforts will not overcome driver development, whereas in prototype, car development and adapting new technologies often overcome driver skills. Of course I'm exaggerating to illustrate that spec and prototype are at polar ends of a spectrum from which one chooses a car and class to compete in. To me, this car is using the "prototype" name in order to generate more interest than would come from just saying NASA "spec". Then the next question is why race? How competitive of a person are you and to what lengths are you willing to go in order to win? By the way, Turbopanzer, I'm not directing these questions to you, but to readers of this thread in general.
Unless your going BIG time racing......I will remain incognito. If they turn Indy Cars rules back....then you will see what I can do.
I don't get the "Incognito" Internet thing, but I will certainly respect privacy. I have done most of the work on my racecars myself, but parts and such are expensive. I also don't do internal engine or transmission work, because I simply don't have the expertise to be confident that I will get it right the first time and don't have time to do multiple engine rebuilds, Dyno testing, and so on. I race The "inexpensive" spec classes because it gives you enough headroom to spend what it takes to run upfront, but still do so on a budget that is less than six figures a year. I don't get the "in-house" engine and fabrication facilities, because that implies the ability to pay at least one person a full-time salary per year., Not to mention the overhead for the tools and physical facilities. But if the huffed tank wants to come work for me for minimum wage, I do have a shop space and some tools, and would be happy to indulge that. At 2000 hours per year and eight dollars per hour, I can certainly afford $16,000 per year and I would gladly throw in an extra $1000 per month for "benefits." Bring it on. Oh, and I'll need you to be able to tow my rig to the distant venues, as that is an additional time-sink and expense that I do not have Time for. I will just have to fly in and meet you. I honestly think I could pilot the car to a national championship in spec racer ford
I wish you well in your quest for your championship. I think you missed the point. The point is simple.....The cost to race based on purchasing parts is a pricey alternative to making them yourself. Secondly, You do not control your fate when buying from someone else. If you follow the Indy Car thread you would understand. Tony Bettenhausen for years purchased cars from Roger Penske. He NEVER got the stuff Penske Racing gets. Your paying top dollar and getting lesser product. Hard to win when someone else controls your fate. You might try reading some books by Carroll Smith. He gives a valuable insight into what it takes to make a winning race car. The same for the book the "Unfair Advantage" by Mark Donahue. Both provide perspectives in what it takes to win and be a front runner.
I have read Tune to Win and Engineer to Win. Great books. You are missing my point. For a club racer with a life and a job, there are limits to what one can do. I have spent many hours underneath race cars on relatively simple tasks like installing drive twin and suspension, alignment, setup and troubleshooting. Buying parts is a necessity and hardly a disadvantage in a well-policed spec class. SCCA Enterprises has done me well for a few years now. I am a decent amateur racer but not a serous pro. I have raced as an amateur at a relatively high level for a out 15 years and it simply costs at least $2-3k a weekend, and that's if you don't crash anything or have any significant mechanical failures. That's running SM or SRF. In Viper Cup we spent more like $10-20k for a race weekend, with travel and the need for crew at each event. The topic at hand is a club racing prototype car aimed at being "spec." I believe that the car will cost over $100K per year to run competitively. Do you disagree? If so, what kind of time commitment would you expect to personally devote to design, fabricate, assemble, test, repair all the components for the race effort and what will materials cost? And what is the lost opportunity cost of that time? Where would the funds for the out of pocket costs for your proposed race program come from? I assume you have IndyCar experience and perhaps much more, like IMSA prototypes. I have no personal experience but believe you are being facile if you suggest pro racing at the Indy Car or IMSA prototype level can be done inexpensivley. I agree that designing, engineering, testing,and building your own components is likely better than buying from a works team like Penske. With a dedicated team wiling to work cheaply you can probably do well for less than say a Newman-Haas level budget, but it won't be cheap.
Please read .......Gordon Kirby - Auto Racing - The Way It Is Please take not to the paragraph pertaining to mechanics. Please read...Gordon Kirby - Auto Racing - The Way It Is Please take note to the last few paragraph pertaining to mechanics. You do not NASA budgets to race. If you can't afford to hire people........learn the skill sets required. It is why racing is in trouble. Your statement about 16k for a mechanic for racing is part of the reason we can't find good mechanics. If I can build it myself for less than a manufacturer, then I live to race longer simply because I keep more of my money. It all boils down to perspective and what is important to you. The best example I can give is a very talented man that posts on this site sometimes is nothing more than a mechanic like myself. Yet many Ferrari owners owe their cars life to his work. Without him....many Ferrari's would be scrap. His dedication and life's work never gets the money it should, but for all the time he has put into fixing the problems, others benefit. You talk about budgets, yet his skill sets far exceed many who work on cars. I doubt he got paid what he should have to R&D a factory problem. He simply went on his own to fix the problems of certain Ferrari's. Think you can find that kind of talent for 16k a year? The cost to race from your perspective is based on what you can afford to spend, and what you think a persons wages are worth. I value my self with a higher regard. And with that I will always look at how I can run a team with the idea of turning a profit. And having multiple skills sets has a tendency to help in controlling costs and keeping budgets down.
Turbo, I'm not really sure what your thesis is here. are you saying that everyone needs to be a high level mechanic with a fully functioning machine shop before they can race? that we need to turn the clock back to 60's/70's era technology? that we need to learn to compete with less? that rich guys should be banned from the sport? you seem to be stuck in a very specific era of motorsport, one where you were able to thrive, and want to make the entire sport regress back to that point....well to quote my old pal Mr. Dylan, the times, they are a'changin'...
I don't think he's saying that, but I could be wrong. I take it more as if you want to race competitively on a budget, you have to be able to diagnose and fix your car yourself without having a team of mechanics. I consider myself to be pretty auto savvy, but a personal choice for me would be to have the mechanics with more experience do it because I want to focus on the driving aspect.
Both of you are in the arena. IamRob has it pretty close in regards to the budget aspect. You want to compete in a "spec" class of the sport? Then how about making an effort to live within the intend idea of the class. NASA calls this "affordable" racing. Well if you spend wisely it will be. Learning a few skills sets that you don't presently have is a good way to keep it affordable. Not to mention it helps with your driving skills when you can feel what a car is doing and know what changes to make and do them yourself. The purpose of the articles was simply to show there is a direct connection between going fast and technical skills. If you have both and can do the work just like Gurney, Hall and others, you may just find that you don't need all the "stuff" to make yourself competitive. Ask yourself on simply question.......what can I learn today that will help me seek my goal? In racing it is a simple answer........work at making yourself better. Money helps everything, but having the skills needed to compete both on and off the track cuts the expenses considerably.
You keep not answering my question. Budget to run the NASA prototype for one season, and not counting the car? Call it 8 race weekends. And DIY is great, I do it myself very often, but surely you recognize that some out of pocket costs are required for materials, parts (you don't make your own bearings, rods, rod ends, hoses, bolts, pistons, gears, etc, right?), food, lodging, fuel, tires and more. That has to be part of the budget and has to come from somewhere. When one is DIY, one is unpaid, so another revenue source is required. Sponsorship, perhaps? That takes time, too. There is time and there is money and both are in finite supply and need to be budgeted. I stand by my belief that running this car is a six figure proposition for a year. If you say it is less, then give an estimate. And my $16K per year offer for mechanic help was hyperbole. No competent person will work for that. So "in house" means you have to pay someone quite a bit more. Frankly a decent crew chief level mechanic with excellent fabrication, setup, tuning and other skills, hired full time, is probably a 6 figure proposition all by itself. Racing always has, and always will draw rich guys, rules creep, and other things that make it expensive. That can be fought in part with in house development, but that has its own costs for at least skilled labor. As the old saying goes, there is no "I" in "Team" and multiple people cost money. I honestly don't think we disagree all that much, but I do think you are avoiding puttin down a number and being able to explain it.
You are neglecting the fact that time is also a cost. I'd also say that buying vs building a particular part boils down to whether that part is mostly (1) a wear item, (2) damage repair item, (3) for durability purposes, or (4) to gain a competitive advantage. I see no reason to build my own parts for the first three, but will look to design, test and build for the latter. In a "spec" class, how can one reasonably believe that the cost (time and cash) to build a part will be less than buying it from the designated vendor making them in bulk, unless they are pricing them at too high a profit margin? That is the unknown about the NASA "prototype"; the old razor vs razor blade business model of get the customer in at a seemingly attractive price, then make your money selling replacement parts.
In relation to your question about a budget.....can't offer one until a rule book has been completely read. I don't make assumptions based on advertising. To truly determine a budget,one has to consider all parameters as to location of races, other events surrounding event weekends, costs on both raw materials and purchased items not made in house, and those parts required to be purchased by sanctioning body.(it is a "spec series) I will offer you this as food for thought in regards to lowering your fabrication costs....PlasmaCAM cutting Systems, CNC Plasma Cutting machine, CNC plasma table One way of lowering your costs. The list is endless as to how you do it. The issue is....do you want to? I can only speak from experience and based on my time.......for me it can be done at a considerably lower cost.
I give up on the budget debate. From the web site, it looks like 14 cars have been ordered, so that is certainly a start. It's not enough to tempt me out of SRF, which how has a minimum weight of 1560 lbs and 120 rwhp, and usually 25+ car fields. The NP01 should be quick, and I bet we see some at the Thunderhill 25 hour race. I still think this is not a grassroots-level car, but it remains to be seen.
A budget between $500K-$750K would make a very competitive team for this racer I think. Not even the Miata Cup is "Grassroots" any more, no mas "mom and pop" teams.
if you know of anyone spending $750k/yr on a program for one of these cars, let me know where to send my resume.
Haha. I assumed a team could be run on that size budget, I forgot what happens when one starts assuming. Sorry
