My (Bob) Norwood Experience | FerrariChat

My (Bob) Norwood Experience

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Russ Gould, May 23, 2018.

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  1. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    #1 Russ Gould, May 23, 2018
    I met Bob Norwood in mid 2016 when I looked at a car (well actually a pile of parts) he was selling. Due to a misunderstanding regarding the selling price that discussion ended. I recall Norwood and his crew spending a lot of time badmouthing a prior customer's car (a “Carpenter car” ie a 288 conversion done by his nemesis and then sent to him for further work).

    We had a further discussion by phone regarding a 328 that was for sale in Florida, but after looking at the car in the flesh as well as having it inspected by a shop in FL, I passed.

    In January 2017 I purchased a “project” 288 GTO tribute car with the intent of completing the conversion and installing the included 355 drivetrain.

    So the first real chapter of my “Norwood Experience” began when I had the vehicle and associated parts delivered to Norwood Autocraft in early Feb 2017. The vehicle is a 308 GTSi with 288 GTO bodywork mounted by others, plus a loose 355 drivetrain, the 355 ECUs and wiring harnesses, a set of Speedline Mistral wheels and some other loose parts. Norwood was asked to quote the necessary mechanical and electrical work to complete the project. It took more than 2 months to obtain the title so in the interim the car was at Norwood's for evaluation and estimates.

    Around the time the vehicle was delivered, I wired Norwood $5K to pay the transporter, the balance to be applied to the work when we got to that point. Big Red sent me a list of parts they noted missing when the vehicle was delivered, as well as some damage to the vehicle supposedly caused in transit, but according to the transporter, the damage occurred when Norwood and his gang unloaded the vehicle.

    I visited his premises shortly after the car was delivered and was told right off the bat to take the 355 ECUs and associated wiring harnesses home, as he would not be using them. I explained that we could not do any work until I had the title, but that I needed estimates from him in the interim. He told me that the bodywork was reasonably straight, unlike the other “Carpenter car” he had worked on. Bodywork aside, the car was in worse shape than I was led to believe. Among other things, the “Ferrari” Speedline wheels had the wrong bolt pattern, with only the fronts on the car secured by one lug bolt each behind the center caps; the rears were not mounted at all, as the rear chassis had been cut out and discarded. The car arrived on a set of casters where the rear wheels should have been. The rear suspension corners were supplied loose without shocks/springs or torsion bar, and with only one half shaft. The front bumper lights turned out to be lenses only, stuffed into the bumper openings for purposes of photographing the car. Several other parts were missing including the wheelhouses, much of the interior controls and trim, one heater box, and pretty much anything with a horsie on it.

    Shortly thereafter, Norwood provided estimates to do the mechanical and electrical work. He later revised the parts estimate as he missed some stuff the first time. After I got over the fact that the seller had pulled the wool over my eyes, I was happy that the estimates seemed very reasonable at around $25K, split $13K for labor and $12K for parts. I feared that given the missing parts and the condition of the car, the project would not be feasible and I would have to sell it on or part it out. But Bob convinced me that I would be all done at around $100K including paint and interior, and that I would come out with my head above water. Little did I know that a whole herd of sheep had to be sheared to provide the second pile of wool that was being pulled over my eyes by my new friend.

    While we were waiting for the title, Norwood sent me the first invoice also attached. There were a lot of charges for the Florida 328 car on the invoice which surprised me as I didn't think I was going to get a fat bill for a couple of phone conversations about the car. When I expressed surprise that I was being billed for that aborted project he removed all the charges bar one, which to this day he stubbornly refuses to remove. Anyway the invoice was revised and the revised version is also attached. There went half of my $5K. All I had to show for it was the relocation of the car and a couple of estimates. These later proved to be worth less than the paper they were written on.

    Chapter 2 to come.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 Dr Tommy Cosgrove, May 23, 2018
    He charges customers to "go over" the car with them ?

    And to order parts??
     
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  3. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 10, 2003
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    #3 dm_n_stuff, May 23, 2018
    I did have a shop tell me once that they charged my kid $300 for a $150 part because they, "Had to look it up and order it, and the $150 covered that." We never used that shop again.


    So, to me, charging to go over the car would be a signal to pack up the car and run to a new shop.

    But hey, he also charged to move the car around, I'm assuming, within the shop itself.

    At least he only charged $35/hr for some of that.

    D
     
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  4. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ
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    #4 daytona355, May 23, 2018
    Norwood should be wearing a stripy top and carrying a toolbox marked ‘swag’ he’s such a robber... everyone wants to make a living, and someone has to pay the bills, but there’s earning a living, and there’s outright robbery.
     
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  5. paulyp

    paulyp Karting

    Dec 11, 2011
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    Dallas
    #5 paulyp, May 23, 2018
    1. Send Email on 328 job...$85.

    Is he a mechanattorney?
     
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  6. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 Dr Tommy Cosgrove, May 23, 2018
    I had a guy here in town once charge me to look up how to replace the crank position sensors on my 308 QV. Charged me an hr (maybe more) for his research time... One of the top three most pissed off moments I have ever been in a shop. And I have had many moments.

    If I were the mechanic, the last thing I would want the customer to know is that I don't know how to do something and then penalize them further financially to learn how.

    I'll just stick with experienced shops and save money on the on the job training in the future.
     
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  7. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #7 Dr Tommy Cosgrove, May 23, 2018
    Without even hearing Norwood's side to all this - these charges already show how full of **** he is. Nothing he can say will justify an 85 buck fee to email someone.

    No way no how.
     
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  8. F355 Fan 82

    F355 Fan 82 F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2006
    9,063
    #8 F355 Fan 82, May 23, 2018
    Why does anyone even do business with bob norwood after that enormous long thread on here. There are so many good, honest people out there, seems like a waste of time even dealing with this guy.
     
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  9. F355 Fan 82

    F355 Fan 82 F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2006
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    #9 F355 Fan 82, May 23, 2018
    Hey you should see the cost to email my attorney......
     
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  10. sidtx

    sidtx F1 Rookie
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    #10 sidtx, May 23, 2018
    On the other hand, if the estimates are good, paying $25K - 30K for a running, driving 288 Tribute, with a 355 drivetrain, sounds like a good deal to me!

    Not defending anyone here. Just saying that I paid about that for my Mondial (which I love) -- if I had the choice to spend the same for a Ferrari based 288 Tribute -- No contest, the 288 Tribute would have won in a heartbeat!

    Sid
     
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  11. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    #11 Russ Gould, May 23, 2018
    He didn't even order any parts for me at this point, not from England, not from anywhere. The project was on full hold until we got the title.

    But yes, as you will see he charges to order parts. He charges to print out parts lists. He charges to fetch parts. He charges to unpack parts. And he marks up parts!!
     
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  12. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2004
    1,073
    #12 Russ Gould, May 23, 2018
    His estimate seemed reasonable to me too at the time, but it did not include the car. That was another $50K. And as you will see Norwood's estimates were, how shall we say, a little misleading? I think there is a legal term as well.
     
  13. paulyp

    paulyp Karting

    Dec 11, 2011
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    #13 paulyp, May 23, 2018
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
    Searching ASE rates I see nothing about shop hours for sending an email. That's gratis, and I have worked in some high dollar shops. This is laughable. Someone please prove me wrong.
     
  14. Simon^2

    Simon^2 F1 World Champ

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    #14 Simon^2, May 23, 2018
    This should be eye opening...
     
  15. cmt6891

    cmt6891 Formula 3

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    #15 cmt6891, May 23, 2018
    Sometimes the hourly rate for "estimate " is $85 and other times $35 ?? WTF this is sooo unprofessional. WHO even charges to prepare an estimate. I am in sales and marketing and I would love to charge a potential client for a proposal but we all know the result. I would get the car and parts out of there as soon as possible, hopefully he won't charge for that.

    Not sure about Texas but in Californis BAR( Bureau of Automotive Repair)would have a field day with this case. GL
     
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  16. randkin

    randkin Formula 3
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    #16 randkin, May 23, 2018

    +1 - Charging for an "estimate" before the job is NEVER going to happen. Charging for an "estimate" after the job is just him rubbing in salt. Whatever one thought of Norwood previously, it is pretty hard to cut him any slack presently on his business practices. IMO
     
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  17. Jakuzzi

    Jakuzzi Formula 3

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    #17 Jakuzzi, May 23, 2018
    Not good....... but he falls short compared to a fellow in the west coast who [and it’s all on public record and magazines] will take an real and original Porsche 959, “modify” it [some would say butcher it] and then re-sell it as an "Original" Porsche 959.
     
  18. Gran Drewismo

    Gran Drewismo F1 Rookie

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    #18 Gran Drewismo, May 23, 2018
    It appears the rates change based on who is doing the work. Bob is $85 and the other guys are $35. That's straight out of an attorney's playbook. I've never seen that before in any auto shop.
     
  19. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 Dr Tommy Cosgrove, May 23, 2018
    No auto mechanic is $35 an hour.

    Not since the 70's, at least.
     
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  20. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    #20 tbakowsky, May 23, 2018
    Have any of you ever had to pay a lawyer? Doctor? Etc..why can they get away with it?
    I can spend a massive amount of time on the phone and internet chasing down parts. I don't charge for it..but I'm thinking more and more I should.

    If you are relying on me to use my resources to find parts for your out of production car, why can't I put a price on that? Why is it bad to pay for my time to do so?
     
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  21. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #21 fatbillybob, May 23, 2018
    You pay for that doctor to diagnose and treatment plan,execute and know how to do that. They are not researching how to do it.

    If a guy has a hot start problem and rattle on shutdown a good mechanic knows it is the grease in his 348 clutch pack. I'm not paying a mechanic for what he does not know and is going to learn on my car.
     
  22. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    May 4, 2001
    35,338
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    Tommy
    #22 Dr Tommy Cosgrove, May 24, 2018
    It is easier now to find parts than ever before in the history of this planet.

    Remember when you had to work the phone? It was our only option (aside from mail) and you had to take onto account time differences overseas?

    I can locate, order and pay for a distributor cap for my QV when I'm up taking a piss at 2am on a Sunday morning.

    You are going to tell me it was easier in 1981?
     
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  23. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    #23 thorn, May 24, 2018
    You absolutely pay a lawyer to research how to win your case. Do you think they spend time reading precedence all of those leather-bound books for free? They bill you for every one of those hours.

    You don't have to warranty the part and the installation. The shop does. That's the difference.
     
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  24. itsablurr

    itsablurr Formula 3

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    #24 itsablurr, May 24, 2018
    It's amusing that some conflate the practice and justification of billing methods for doctors and lawyers with that of a mechanic. Why not extend the same to the guy running around my yard with a lawnmower and fertilizer?
     
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  25. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    #25 thorn, May 24, 2018
    So are you a doctor, or a lawyer? ;)
     
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