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430 MT gearbox oil recommendations

Discussion in '360/430' started by tomdeg, Dec 16, 2020.

  1. Flea7

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    I'm not an oil expert. I try to follow the advice of experts with experience with our cars. From what I took in some of the threads, there is one in particular that Need4speed mentioned, Brian seem to hint that the 75w-90NS was what he uses. I could be wrong....maybe he will chime in. I wouldn't mind using a lighter oil like the MTL but how is on gears? What do you focus on gears or synchros? That is the pressing question. Is MTL bad on gears over time? If so, what's more expensive to replace....gears or synchros? Does GL5 wear out the brass in the synchros ...does GL4 teardown the gears???
     
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  3. Need4Spd

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    Synchros. The gears at risk when using GL4 are the hypoid differential gears, which of course are quite large (and very expensive to replace, if you can even find parts), so unlikely he’d have a box full of them. This is why I had Blackstone do a transmission oil analysis. But if you use GL4, you proceed at your own risk. Synchros are cheaper to replace.


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  4. Flea7

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    Brain has recommended MTL in 308/328 but would not recommend it in our f430s and others with hyp. gears. Its in a thread somewhere. I'll try to find it.
     
  5. Flea7

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    Here it is. He is talking about RL MTL. This isn't the thread that NEED4speed is referring to though.

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/switching-my-oil-to-redline-any-thoughts-why-i-should-not.128933/




    His quote below:

    "My shop is right down the road from Redline and we use their products in the race cars. I have had many long conversations with them about their products and their recomendations.

    Ferrari specs GL5 gear oils for the transmissions. Due to Ferraris specs Redline will not officially suggest anything other than GL5 gear oils.

    GL5 basically means an oil that is designed for medium to high offset hypoid differentials. MTL is a GL4 lubricant which means it is designed for medium to low offset hypoid gears. In the 308, 328, 348, 355 transaxles there are NO hypoid gears of any type, hi, low, or medium, offset.


    I am not ordinarily an experimenter with others cars except in circumstances where the official way is obviously not working but I have seen MTL used with great success and zero problems in 308 transmissions since the product was introduced many years ago. It was also the oil of choice in the transaxles of the 355 and 348 Challenge race cars with zero problems. Those transmissions were subjected to greater stresses and heat in one weekend than most of our transmissions are in a lifetime. I cannot say that however of the AGIP oil spec'd by Ferrari at the time. One session at the track finished off several transaxles and we were told unofficially by Ferrari to quit using it in cars that would see track service. That garbage did remain the official oil.

    I have been using MTL in customer cars that had cronic shifting complaints for several years including one 85 308 in daily service with over 115,000 miles on it and the owner is pleased to this day how his transmission performs.


    It's great oil. If you have a shifting problem use it.


    I would not use it in any transaxle in a 275, 330, 365, BB, BBi, TR, 288, F40, 550, 456, 360, 430, 612, or 599. Those are all medium offset hypoid gear differentials and should have GL5 oil."
     
  6. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    Thanks Flea7, that makes sense, at the time I was private messaging Brian Crall, I had my F355 spider....so redline 75/90NS (and MTL for poor shifting quality) were his recommendations....

    Sounds like on my 430 Scuderia it would be 75/90NS....but the shop that works on my car uses the factory Shell with some Lube Guard limited slip additive.
     
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  8. Flea7

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    This is why I use the RL 75w-90NS....it's GL5
     
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  9. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    I think you are mistaken. The "NS", means "no slip" additive for the limited slip differential . The Redline 75/90 NS is specifically formulated for transaxles where you want a lubricant that favors synchros. The slip additive for the limited slip differential is what causes the synchros to crunch. With the NS, you add the slip additive separately...just enough to satisfy the limited slip, and no more. In the case of my 328GTS and later F355 spider, I never added any slip additive...so occasionally on a hard 90 degree turn (usually in a parking lot maneuver) I could get a little rumble noise from the limited slip...no big deal.

    This is the dilemma with transaxle lubricants. You have to compromise between differing requirements for the synchros, gears and limited slip diff.
     
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  10. timwu12

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    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/145361333/

    His earlier replies on post #6 and 7 of the same thread (scroll up from the above link) makes it sound like he doesn't wholeheartedly agree with the use of GL5 and that's why I'm under the impression that he uses GL4 oil. Otherwise, like in the 308 thread posted above, he would probably flat out just say something like: Ferrari specs GL5 and I believe that's the right call as well
     
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  11. Need4Spd

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    Hmm. I may try that next change. The stuff that hurts synchros and turns GL4 into GL5 is the sulfur additive. The nonslip is a different one. But since it seems to work for you I may try it next time.


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  13. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    BTW, here is the ad script from the Redline website for 75-90NS

    75W90NS GL-5 GEAR OIL
    • Designed for transmissions and transaxles - helps to slow synchros for easier shifting across a broad temperature range
    • Popular in Ferrari, Porsche and Subaru transaxles
    • Muscle Car applications like Ford Top Loader, Muncie transmissions, Borg-Warner T-10 and Super T-10
    • Contains extreme pressure additives like our 75W90 GL-5 oil, but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness
    • Improved copper corrosion protection to prolong synchro life
    • Helps with lock-up on weak limited-slip differentials-compatible with Red Line Limited Slip Friction Modifier for tuning slippage
    • Also used with clutch-type LSDs in racing for maximum lock up
    • Recommended for API GL-5, GL-6, MT-1, MIL-L-2105E and SAE J2360
    • Non corrosive formula, safe for use with all synchro materials
     
  14. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    More gold from Rifledriver historic posts...:
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/145365780/
    "Shift quality is of no concern in an F1. The hydraulics cannot tell the difference. Most of us used that or similar until the fleet of cars got older. I am very serious when I say I have a big box of destroyed syncros and they are not just from 360. They are from all of the brass syncro cars. That's when I started investigating. Many people have changed over to a GL4 but I will never publicly advocate (and neither will any oil company) a lubricant specification contrary to Ferrari's advice."

    So maybe he is advocating GL4/MTL...
     
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  15. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    From Redline website on MTL:


    MTL® 75W80 GL-4 GEAR OIL
    • Popular for BMW, Honda/Acura, Ford Focus, late-model Mini Cooper, Land Rover/Range Rover LT77S, Mitsubishi, Dodge & Jeep NV1500, NV3500, NV3550 and NV5600 truck transmissions
    • Popular replacement for and improvement over GM Synchromesh® (#12345349), Auto-Trak II® (#12378508) and Chrysler spec MS-9224
    • Safe for brass synchros, as it lacks the reactive sulfurs found in most GL-5 oils that cause damage
    • Offers quicker shifts, A perfect synchronizer coefficient of friction
    • Eliminates notchy shifting, even when cold
    • High performance gear protection and longer synchro life
    • Satisfies the gear oil viscosity requirements of 75W, 80W and motor oil viscosities of SAE 30, 10W30 and 5W30
    • Recommended for GL-1, GL-3 and GL-4 applications as well as where most special synchromesh fluids are specified
     
  16. Need4Spd

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    Right. But it’s not corrosion that destroys the synchros with GL5. It’s the sulfur in it that binds too tightly with the synchro metal.


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  17. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Whats the worst that happens if you use mtl? Not gonna disintegrate
     
  18. Need4Spd

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    You can wear out the hypoid gears in the differential.


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  19. Flea7

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    This is the thread...now i'm re-thinking my oil. It's confusing that he would not recommend the MTL F430 and others models but yet not use GL5. If not MTL....what other options do we have? Arrggg...
     
  20. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Builds character!
     
  21. Flea7

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    Would MT90 be a better option....it's a heavier version of MTL.
     
  22. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Not if cold second gear crunch is your issue
     
  23. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Veteran
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    Cold second gear crunch is from synchros. Since using MT90, shifts are smooth and almost no warmup time needed to use second gear on my gated 360.


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  24. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    If you think mt90 is an improvement u wld love mtl
     
  25. RedTaxi

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    While Brian never said use GL-4 he said it is ok for low to medium offset hypoid gear sets. A pic in that old thread confirmed that 360's and 430's have these gear sets. Medium to high offset gear sets you would typically find in heavy vehicles making lots of low down torque. Hardly a 360 or 430. I'm over 3 years in (2 trans oil changes) on MT-90 (after using the NS) and it shifts better. (manual trans) I'm switching to MTL this time to see if it's even better. As Need4Spd said he's had GL-4 analysed twice with no disernible iron reading. That means no gear wear. That's real world and I thank him.
     
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  26. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    You will be in for a treat with the mtl
     
  27. hessank

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    Great discussion guys and thank you for all your input. I am no longer confused (though it doesn't take much to do that).
    Two years ago I changed mine to Valvoline. In the Spring I will give the MTL a shot as Glen (RedTaxi) also suggested for himself.
     
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  28. 360+Volt=Prius

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